Advanced Search

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Uh-oh, this occurred during the cheating phase.

(Change the setup to 7 blood.)

Yup, Ingrid is 9-cap.

I like this change. It makes sense from both game mechanics point of view and flavor point of view. Less obligatory triggers that players have to keep track of will mean less awkward moments when players play sloppy and make mistakes. Now its an option for example to say "oops I forgot" rather than force the game to be backtracked. Its not uncommon in our local casual games that a player accidentally transfers to the wrong vampire for example (happened last week).

Also from flavor point of view, blood to full capacity would mean you have managed to gain full control of a vampire. But you shouldn't be forced to put that vampire in danger, say, a baltimore purge, or a rush-happy enemy.

I also like the ally change. Now the official way of recruiting allies becomes the same as the way we have always played and what is intuitive . The amount of people who correctly used to use the uncontrolled region is about the same as those who say "lock" instead of "tap".

Ankha wrote:

Eg., Alice controls Information Highway (+2 transfers) and Ennoia's Theater (lock to get +1 transfer), and has Ingrid Rossler (+2 transfers if ready) with 6 blood in her uncontrolled region.

Alice receives 6 transfers at the start of her influence phase. She uses 2 transfers to move 2 pool to Ingrid Rossler (+2 transfers if ready) and decides to move her to the ready region.

Uh-oh, this occurred during the cheating phase.

(Change the setup to 7 blood.)

Lönkka wrote:

Self-contesting.

I assume that the crypt card that is at full capacity or more will still needs to come out of the uncontrolled during the influence phase, right? (you now just get to apply possible effect that coming to controlled might trigger/enable)

No. It doesn't move any longer automatically to the ready region. It's now an action of the player.

Lönkka wrote:

You just can't leave your minions in the uncontrolled even if you don't want to bring them out for some reason (going to be torporized, Baltimore Purged or whatever), right?

You can leave them, even if they have enough blood to move to the ready region.

Lönkka wrote:

What happens when you notice that you have a minion at full capacity, or more, in your uncontrolled and it would self-contest?

Nothing.

Lönkka wrote:

Say, you've Governed down and for some reason don't have enough transfers to move excess pool away from the minion that you already have in ready region to make it less than full cap? You get to keep that minion as a bonus storage for pool or what happens? (say, an empty four cap gets to be recipient two Govern superiors bringing the pool on it to 6 and the player, for some reason doesn't use transfers to transfer the counters to his pool)

You can keep it in your uncontrolled region.

Ankha wrote:

At any time during this phase, if a vampire has at least as many blood counters as his capacity, the player can move to the ready region that vampire.

Emphasis mine. The player chooses if and when to move the vampire into play. A player may also not self-contest.

Lönkka wrote:

I assume that the crypt card that is at full capacity or more will still needs to come out of the uncontrolled during the influence phase, right?

No. You can just leave a vampire in your uncontrolled region the entire game even if they have enough blood on them.

Self-contesting.

I assume that the crypt card that is at full capacity or more will still needs to come out of the uncontrolled during the influence phase, right? (you now just get to apply possible effect that coming to controlled might trigger/enable)

You just can't leave your minions in the uncontrolled even if you don't want to bring them out for some reason (going to be torporized, Baltimore Purged or whatever), right?

What happens when you notice that you have a minion at full capacity, or more, in your uncontrolled and it would self-contest?

Say, you've Governed down and for some reason don't have enough transfers to move excess pool away from the minion that you already have in ready region to make it less than full cap? You get to keep that minion as a bonus storage for pool or what happens? (say, an empty four cap gets to be recipient two Govern superiors bringing the pool on it to 6 and the player, for some reason doesn't use transfers to transfer the counters to his pool)

Fellow Methuselahs,

After feedback of the community, and in order to remove unnecessary complexity to the game, the following rules with be effective as for April 02, 2018 (as always, changes contained herein do not go into effect for santioned tournaments for 30 days.)

Rule change #1: Timing during the Influence phase

Vampires (or Imbued) are no longer automatically moved to the ready region at the end of the influence phase. Instead, they are actively moved to the ready region by the player.

As a consequence, you cannot self-contest a unique vampire or imbued anymore (per rule 4.1. Contested Cards): the crypt card has to stay in the uncontrolled region. Minions that have a replacement effect as they would come into play (eg., Anarch Convert) or that cannot be contested (eg., Jimmy Dunn) can still be played as before.

Also, the number of transfers a player receives each turn is determined at the start of the influence phase. Cards that provide transfers upon use can still be triggered during the influence phase to get more transfers.

Eg., Alice controls Information Highway (+2 transfers) and Ennoia's Theater (lock to get +1 transfer), and has Ingrid Rossler (9 capacity, +2 transfers if ready) with 7 blood in her uncontrolled region.

Alice receives 6 transfers at the start of her influence phase. She uses 2 transfers to move 2 pool to Ingrid Rossler (+2 transfers if ready) and decides to move her to the ready region. Alice doesn't get the +2 transfers granted by Ingrid Rossler, but can lock Ennoia's Theater to get 1 more transfer. She does so and uses her 5 remaining transfers to move 5 pool to another uncontrolled vampire, and declares the end of her influence phase.

Note: The abilities of vampires or Imbued such as Angela Preston or Paul "Sixofswords29" Moreton can now be used the turn they are put into play.

Updated rulebook text:

IV. Influence phase
At the start of her influence phase, the player gets 4 transfers, except the first three turns of the game, where players get one, two, and three transfers on the first, second, and third turn, respectively.
Like master phase actions, transfers can be spent for different effects, and transfers that have not been spent are lost when proceeding to the next phase.
These effects are:
- Spend 1 transfer: move one blood counter from her pool to a vampire in her uncontrolled region
- Spend 2 transfers: move one blood counter from a vampire in her uncontrolled region to her pool
- Spend 4 transfers and pay 1 pool: draw a crypt card.
- Spend 4 transfers and pay 1 pool: merge a base and an advanced version of a vampire.
Some cards allow spending transfers to produce other effects. Some cards also grant additional transfers.
At any time during this phase, if a vampire has at least as many blood counters as his capacity, the player can move that vampire to the ready region. The blood counters on the vampire stay on him and become his blood. Blood counters in excess to his capacity are burned (see sec. H.1. Crypt cards). If the vampire grants additional transfers, those can’t be used on this turn because transfers are gained at the start of the influence phase.


Rule change #2: Recruiting allies

Allies that are recruited are now moved to the ready region instead of the uncontrolled region, but cannot take actions the turn they are recruited. (This applies only to allies that are recruited, not allies that are put into play by other means.)

Allies that previously were moved to the ready region when recruited (Nocturn, Infernal Servitor) are not restricted by this rule. They read now: "This ally can act the turn it is recruited."

This doesn't change anything in the count of ready minions controlled by a Methuselah but makes it more intelligible than a ready minion in the uncontrolled region.

This implies a few changes:
- an ally that has been recruited this turn can now block a vampire controlled by another Methuselah that is acting out-of-turn during the same turn.
- an ally that has been recruited this turn can now be burned by cards such as Abomination.

Rule change #3: Caitiff as a clan

Caitiff is now a clan. When choosing a clan, Caitiff is now a valid choice (eg., Consanguineous Boon, Clan Impersonation etc.)

Note: Clanless vampires are still considered as vampires without a clan, not Caitiff.

The rule stating that Caitiff are clanless, while true to the canon, has had negligible impact on games of V:tES, but adds an unnecessary complexity to the game.

Rémi wrote:

I mean allowing players without any cards to create their own proxies has only one risk : maybe they could discover VTES... which could even lead to transform them into future customers. It means free advertisment campaign for a product which is not yet confirmed. Why do almost every card game show pre-released cards on the web before selling them? People can try them, talks about them. At the end people buys more product.

Not really a problem as so few places are selling VETS any more...

Rémi wrote:

By the way, people who has the cards still does not want to play with people who does not, there is nothing else to add there.

Wow, really!?
At least in Finland the more experienced players are really quite welcoming to newer ones.

Dear all,

TwoRazorReign wrote:

GreyB wrote:

As an organisation for promoting VTES and working on getting VTES back to print, it would be diplomatically (and legally) wrong to allow 100% self printed cards.

Okay, so there's a diplomatic/legal reason for requiring VTES backing cards. If that's the case, then the rule makes sense to me.

I do not agree. It would make sense only if using proxies were a legally problem.
I do not even imagine a company saying : "Wait! I am thinking about printing a cardgame, I do not want anyone to print their own proxies because it will be a problem in the future."
I am sure that the question has never been asked to that company.

I mean allowing players without any cards to create their own proxies has only one risk : maybe they could discover VTES... which could even lead to transform them into future customers. It means free advertisment campaign for a product which is not yet confirmed. Why do almost every card game show pre-released cards on the web before selling them? People can try them, talks about them. At the end people buys more product.

By the way, people who has the cards still does not want to play with people who does not, there is nothing else to add there.

Regards,
Rémi.

This answer was given in this thread.
Several people have pointed to the fact that all tournament decks should be built only with cards of said game.
We also gave arguments to the fact that before, a player had to gather the real cards and this is now gigantically easier, as now all one needs are any copies of any cards.

I think what's happening is you and others are misunderstanding the question. Remi asked "May I ask why you still ask to print on standard paper and use a genuine cards to use proxies?" Until GreyB mentioned there was a diplomatic/legal reason for it, I had yet to see a genuine answer to this question. I am sorry you feel I am being dismissive, but I think that question deserves an answer other than the one you give above here.

After reading GreyB's answer, I think the rule makes sense and is a good one.

GreyB wrote:

TwoRazorReign wrote:

And what was the answer again? All I saw was a question answered with a question. See the first page in this thread. Is there another answer here that I missed?

I don't think this answer was given in this thread, but I read it somewhere else concerning PDF set cards, but it definitely applies to proxy cards as well.

You need to have official VTES/JYHAD backing cards to guarantee you're playing a 100% VTES/JYHAD product deck, even if you use proxy/pdf-set cards. As an organisation for promoting VTES and working on getting VTES back to print, it would be diplomatically (and legally) wrong to allow 100% self printed cards.

These rules apply to official VEKN sanctioned events. You can allow anything on unsanctioned events.

This answer was given in this thread.
Several people have pointed to the fact that all tournament decks should be built only with cards of said game.
We also gave arguments to the fact that before, a player had to gather the real cards and this is now gigantically easier, as now all one needs are any copies of any cards.

Mr. TwoRazorReign has been dismissive of any arguments that he doesn't agree with, to the point of denying their existence, although they are a few post before.
I do not wish to speculate why he is displaying this attitude, only that it has driven people away from the conversation.

GreyB wrote:

As an organisation for promoting VTES and working on getting VTES back to print, it would be diplomatically (and legally) wrong to allow 100% self printed cards.

Okay, so there's a diplomatic/legal reason for requiring VTES backing cards. If that's the case, then the rule makes sense to me.

TwoRazorReign wrote:

And what was the answer again? All I saw was a question answered with a question. See the first page in this thread. Is there another answer here that I missed?

I don't think this answer was given in this thread, but I read it somewhere else concerning PDF set cards, but it definitely applies to proxy cards as well.

You need to have official VTES/JYHAD backing cards to guarantee you're playing a 100% VTES/JYHAD product deck, even if you use proxy/pdf-set cards. As an organisation for promoting VTES and working on getting VTES back to print, it would be diplomatically (and legally) wrong to allow 100% self printed cards.

These rules apply to official VEKN sanctioned events. You can allow anything on unsanctioned events.

I don't see a big problem here, as a prince you can organise (unsanctioned) tournaments and allow 100% self printed cards. This would be great for new players, however there might be some nasty aftermath when VTES actual goes to print again, will you now disallow the self printed cards?

There's also a legal aspect, in essence 100% self printed cards ARE counterfeits and IP rights owners can in theory sue you to damnation. At least with official cards as backing, you can fall back on an official agreement between IP right owners and the VEKN organisation.

And what was the answer again? All I saw was a question answered with a question. See the first page in this thread. Is there another answer here that I missed?

TwoRazorReign wrote:

I'm sure the rules team has a good answer why this rule exists, I just haven't heard it yet.

The answer was given. If you can't hear it than it's your problem.

elotar wrote:

TwoRazorReign wrote:

Lönkka wrote:

I'm so done with this conversation.

Ta-tah, dahlings!

By petulantly exiting the discussion instead of answering my question, you admit that requiring VTES cards for proxies in tournaments is a dumb rule that we are following for no real reason. I win!

Nobody is forcing you to follow this rule. Make alternative player organization, deal with Paradox and play wherever you like.

My point was not to suggest I am being subjected against my will to rules I don't wish to follow. Rules are rules, and that's fine. My point is to suggest that maybe including this rule was unnecessary, and that this rule could potentially restrict people who don't own cards from playing in tournaments. My belief is that there should be minimal restrictions. I'm sure the rules team has a good answer why this rule exists, I just haven't heard it yet. Which is why I keep posting.