Advanced Search

Malachy wrote:

Also remember: can't sup BA if the opponent plays sup BA.

Can you explain this, Pascal?

There's some confusion here and - unfortunately - Pascal has ruled both ways on this.

1) Back in [LSJ 20011215] , LSJ ruled:

LSJ wrote:

The [two Blissful Agony] strikes resolve simultaneously. The acting methuselah can then order the two pending "after combat" effects - with the one chosen to be first canceling the other.

2) In RTR 2002-05-01 (later than that ruling), the Rules Team changed how queued-up / pending combats were handled.

RTR wrote:

An effect which would cause (a new) combat cannot be used if there is already a "to be resolved later" combat.

The common example for this was Blissful Agony ending combat (which sets up a combat about to happen) and then the opponent playing Psyche! (old text) to start a new combat.

3) In [FZD 20120225] , Pascal ruled that we should follow the ruling in 1.

4) Here, in this thread, Pascal appears to be following the ruling in 2).


However, it's arguable that Blissful Agony doesn't queue up another combat until it resolves and so - when both players play it - there isn't a pending combat to stop them, potentially.




There's some similar confusion regarding Siren's Lure:

2009: groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/B-OXE85SduA/kvhqdJbbFGkJ Earlier in the thread, a pending Siren's Lure prevents Hidden Lurker being played.

LSJ wrote:

Jozxyqk wrote:
> I actually thought Siren's Lure was ruled differently.
> Since Siren's Lure's timing is "once the action resolves", which is after
> all queued combats _during_ the action would happen, it's a little bit
> different from playing psyche/hidden lurker during the action.
>
> The conversation about this seems very familiar, although I can't find
> the magical google groups search that comes up with a result that supports
> this memory....
Yeah. I had the same vague memory. But found nothing to back it up.

But in 2008 - this perhaps being the vague memory they both had but couldn't find:

groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/NWoHG9BuKnQ/6sE-FnADoOsJ

LSJ wrote:

John Flournoy wrote:
> On Apr 28, 1:56 pm, "" <> wrote:
>> Hello LSJ,
>>
>> Vamp A1 calls a political action, Vamp B tries to block. Vamp A2
>> plays Siren's Lure. No more blocks are declared. Can Yawp Court be
>> used at this time? I believe no, because a combat is already queued.
>
> Look at it this way: If another block was declared and succeeded, the
> combat resulting from that block is not annulled because of the
> pending Siren's Lure combat. The existence of 'there will be a combat
> later' due to Siren's Lure doesn't pre-empt any other combats during
> the action - especially since that combat by definition doesn't occur
> until after the action (and all of its resultant combats) resolves.
Correct.

And then if SL does prevent other combat queuers being played, does it prevent Blissful Agony being played? Because then it's clear that we know BA will queue a combat, and that might prevent the opponent's BA being played.

But, for example, acting minion plays Blissful Agony. Opposing minion plays agg damage + Rotschreck. The possibly-queued BA combat doesn't happen because the strike doesn't resolve - it's not a question of interruption and being lost, it simply never gets to strike resolution.

Also remember: can't sup BA if the opponent plays sup BA.

Can you explain this, Pascal?

Majesty: Yes, the new combat happens.
Dodge: The new combat doesn't happen. Dodge protects your minion from the opposing minion's strike.

Also remember: can't sup BA if the opponent plays sup BA.

Blissful Agony, Combat, 1 blood, Valeren/Animalism, R1 , [Bloodlines:R1]

[ani] Strike: make a hand strike at strength+1 damage
[val] Only usable at close range before strikes are chosen. Opposing minion takes 1 damage (damage not preventable) during strike resolution each round this combat if the range is close.
[VAL] Strike: combat ends. Choose a minion controlled by a Methuselah other than the opposing vampire`s controller. The opposing vampire enters combat with that minion.


Question - IMHO the second part of the BA effect kicks in even if the opposing vampire plays S:CE or dodge. I am wrong?

Just wanted to clarify this...

Don't forget Blood Turnip then. You can use that blood gain to get your own vampires infected, then spread it.

oops
well, guess that proofs i m human, right....eh
(hm, becoming anarch and playing final loosening/crypt's sons becomes more and more of an option)

gotcha wrote:

He villeined, i washed, he villeined, vesselled off and started rushing with again 6 pool. The muddled v hunter first, blissful agony, byebye muddled and homa 's leather jack.

Blissful Agony cannot be used at superior Valeren to end combat against an Ally. Ending combat and starting a new one can only be done when the first opponent is a vampire.

Card wrote:

other than the opposing vampire's controller.

I had a 4-player game last night with malkav improvised flamethrower/rush in front, 419 operation crosstable and mata hari/tsunda embrace/tumninos politics as predator. I started off with adonai (no dela in crypt-) Mata Hari had a hard time from the beginning with the osebo rushing her and me blocking some of the weenie hunts and later equipping gran madre (and putting savanah on the table which is also a fun combo since gran madre is a location while in play - ). The malkav started building rather solid, vessel, improvised, ... a casual bleed for 3, a bounce and THE COVEN .. sigh, lol. Mata hari collapsed and somehow it became 2 vs me at that point (probably because I bled steadily for one and two and got the malkav on 1. He villeined, i washed, he villeined, vesselled off and started rushing with again 6 pool. The muddled v hunter first, blissful agony, byebye muddled and homa 's leather jack. Another rush from midcap malkav block with wolf, torpor, ... and a few turns of this aggression from both resulting in adonai being in torpor once. I survived, recruited a carlton, equipped a sniper rifle and influenced doris ... no more torpor for Adonai - ) Aranthebes made the osebo powerless with only diseased homa being able to remove it. Ossian did the rest of the job. Took some effort to oust the malkav, but trying to equip with a leather jacket was his last mistake, leaving him with no untapped, almost empty diseased minions. GW ADONAI!- )

Adding carlton was a good idea, the rack, sniper rifle and gift of bellonia were gold again. I didn't really miss 2 change of target and 2 less burning touch, society was pretty useless because the malkav had a hunting ground and coven was around. Crocodile's tongue was very good but i wouldn't add that many more (maybe 1 more vs allies). Leather jack always very usefull especially against 2R agg, still could've used a couple of hide the hearts more (like 2/3 i think), maybe should leave the sanguine instruction out. Powerbase montreal would have been good but I just stole the malkav's one and discarded mine - ) and savannah was a great backup plan when acting, always being save. None of my vamps got diseased btw. So overall it improved a bit I think and I will keep searching (and reading here - tx for that) for the best options...

Yeah, both Montreal and Savannah are solid ideas. I'd still be leery about diseasing my own vamps, though, when Leopold is an option. Let me know how your games go.

How about adding a powerbase:montreal for poolgain and a powerbase savannah to avoid getting dideased yourself (when acting)?
It's not going to work for this deck, but it seemed a good idea to play anarch revolts (and a couple of converts yourself) so people would start to loose blood themselves and play with final loosening which is a great card i never see (it's brilliant vs voter cap)

The card I've had the most fun playing with is probably Blissful Agony.

It's not only because it's fun to send your predator's vampire in combat with your prey's (especially if you have a Frenzy in hand or if one of the parties is named Lorrie D. or Enkidu or Shambling Horde), it's also a versatile card that can be used to counter S:CE (blocking), or as a Combat Ends that prevents Psyche!s, or you can even play it at inferior sometimes if you happen to play around traps+armor.

Good idea; i think I will drop at least 2 and 1 or 2 change of target then for permanents. And me I love banshee Ironwail too .... should get that one in too and an additional society. Tx!

I try to kit out one for bleeding (Camera Phone + Simmons/Morgan), one for blocking (Abbot + Bowl), and one for both. Leather Jackets for all three. Most things are simple and free, which means that my masters don't have to be directed to blood or pool gain, but I do also include Banshee Ironwail and the blood draining allies (Neighbourhood Watch, Young Bloods, Gregory Winter). And I run... three Society of Leopold, I think? It's easy to burn three vampires in a game when you have that many Hide the Heart.

True .... so you should add society then

gotcha wrote:

Believe me vampiric disease is GOLD. If people dont have a vessel or hunting ground or similar they stay in the loop of losing one and hunt.

No, that is what Society of Leopold does. Diseased vampires do not gain blood by hunting, so there is no loop. If the vampire burns his last blood at untap,, he hunts for 0, then burns the disease counter at the next untap and hunts for 1.