Cause and Effect - 01

Greetings!

The first episode of Cause and Effect is now uploaded on Youtube. We love any discussion and thoughts about our analysises to be discussed here.

This weeks challange is to build a PRE/PRO deck and send it to . We'll pick a deck and talk about it next time. If you like what you saw subscribe to our youtube channel and like us on Facebook.

I agree that tool box decks are hard to play effectively and are allot dependent on other people's decks and plays.
I agree with most of your analysis of strengths, weakness and play-styles.

But I do think Grinders (prefer that name) are Tier 1, specially in the hands of an experienced player. And since it is ridiculous to consider me one, the deck must be good.
I see this the other way around, guys.

It is not the best combat deck at the table IF there is a dedicated deck on the table. Even so it does moderately well against them.
It is not the best bleed deck at the table IF there is a dedicated powerbleed at the table and even so, it's not easy going over this deck in the late game, even if you're a powerbleed.
It is not the better wall at the table but, with that many deflections, delaying tactics (and in the Ventrue version) vote defense, why would you want to?
Auspex weenie? Whack'em to torpor. Howler or Tzimisce Wall? Wait for the proverbial Pentex + Kiss of Ra (yeah, I use one), plus Zips N' Sticks.
My vampires are cheaper and recuperate better. I can survive combat without blood. Can they?

About the locations: they are actually very important in this deck archetype for another reason - it helps you control when you cycle your hand.
You block backwards and play the stick, but punch for one.
You bleed forward, get blocked and hit the poor blocker with everything you got.
Only once I remember having too much combat in my hand.
When your predator is a stealth and bleed, the locations help you bounce better bleeds and make them use stealth that later they will not have.
Nocturnos? Awesome! Force the cycle the stealth calling them and one of two things happen:
they get blocked and don't untap, or they will have less stealth to go forward.

About the Ventrue version: Second Tradition is awesome with intercept locations. It falls soooo much into the concept of the deck. You grind the opponent's stealth until you catch him and whack him on the head.
One card slot, the effect of two card slots in Antitribu version.
Besides 2nd Tradition and Parity Shift, this crypt is really strong because you focus only in .
You get 4 vampires with those superiors: and 2 .
The rest is there to deflect and bleed.
And combat, if need be.
4 different Princes and a solid Primogen and some cool weenies.

I also don't agree with you guys about the Girls deck. It is probably one of the worse match-ups against Grinders. They bloat more that Grinders can bleed, because they start doing it early and Grinders can't Sudden or Wash.
And they use a decent amount of stealth.
Maybe Hugh (or your local Grinder players) can give a better input in this, since I've only played once with my grinder against something close to a Girls deck.
Should've played it in Sweden...


The Grinder grinds opponent's resources. Sometimes it is the Combat Ends. Others it is his wakes, or the blood on vampires (no Coven in grinders!), or his stealth, etc.
You find that one tile you must grind to make the house fall down.

Awesome show guys!
Tiago

PS: Terrorists in Mountains has allot more combat and only one way to use it: get blocked.
This a Grinder without intercept, AKA a bruise bleed.
Adam - did you ever wish you could block someone to kick the living crap out of them? Did you ever clog on combat?

I actually don't consider that DOM/FOR bruise bleed to be anything like a grinder. It might have similarities in crypt and deck, but it's played nothing like it. It's an active get-down-and-dirty-quick kind of deck which cares nothing for others' pace. It's the amount of reaction cards which makes the play style, I reckon. The grinder relies alot on its reaction cards to actually function, the Terrorists in Mountains just does its thing.

That deck list of it is kinda stupid in most metas, it's optimised against ani walls and aus walls. For that specific tournament I knew I would be blocked. A more stable and general-purpose version of it requires rushes. In a meta like what I faced you don't need intercept to block and if you'd include more rushes the need for blocking is diminished. But, I guess don't play it if you expect to need blocks, would be the easy answer.

Concerning the girls deck I would say it's a bit situation-dependent whether it's good or bad for the grinder. Having girls behind it (or any big cap bleed) is extremely good almost always, you have enough bounce to more or less be unkillable. Preying on the girls deck can work out in either's favour; tap bleed is good against girls, but you need to draw alot of it to bleed through the girls deck and you're on the clock to oust it before it starts ousting everyone else. The Ventrue crypt definitely has a leg up on the Ventrue anti, though, because of Mind Numb which is extremely strong against Aksinya.

It seems to me that an almost identical deck list with Theft of Vitae, Magic of the Smith and a Tremere-crypt should be better than the !Ventrue variant. The only advantage going for !Ventrue that I can see is that it's easier to cycle several combat cards in a single combat for them. And still, they seem to be doing better. Any thoughts on that?

+ Sticks N Zips is better than .
You prevent damage that way.

Both don't damage VS S:CE.
is worse VS Immortal Grapple combat
is worse VS combat (you steal 2 , but you can't press to end)
crypt is not as good as both we've discussed because of the number of different vampires and the built in abilities and/or votes.
are awesome.
Parity Shift and 2nd Tradition rule. (Actually the guys that use them do)

Brum wrote:

+ Sticks N Zips is better than .
You prevent damage that way.

Damage prevention isn't outright better than blood stealing. Both have their advantages in specific situations but in a vacuum, the math is on Theft's side.

Both don't damage VS S:CE.
is worse VS Immortal Grapple combat

I'll raise you with a Magic'd Sniper Rifle.

is worse VS combat (you steal 2 , but you can't press to end)

That I might see.

crypt is not as good as both we've discussed because of the number of different vampires and the built in abilities and/or votes.
are awesome.

I'm going to disagree. G2-3 Tre/!Tre are pretty solid.

Parity Shift and 2nd Tradition rule. (Actually the guys that use them do)

Well, now, that's not really a !Ventrue deck.