Extrala is wrong (Did you know, that ... (Part 91))

extrala wrote:

Can you tell me why the first two are valid in comparison of the third?

- OtH + Maneuver to long + Majesty Disarm => Not valid.
- OtH + Selective Silence + Disarm => Not valid.
- OtH + Fear of the Void Below + Majesty + Disarm => Valid.

I'd love to hear this too. Fear of the Void Below defaults the range to long, and I'm thinking long is long - you can't play Disarm if the range is long.

This baffels me somewhat.

Ohlmann wrote:

Reyda wrote:

The very creation of a step where "range is not yet known but ..." is the perfect example of the failure of wording this card properly.

Oh, yes, because nothing happen before range. I will remeber that the next time I tore a signpost.

I don't know for you, but Outside the hourglass was worded exactly like a regular strike, while environmental card was not. Outside the hourglass is ... crystal clear, it's more a case of Disarm being here from day one and alway having a strange wording.

then if it's so clear, why does this thread exist ? When a card summons a lot of questions from players everywhere, it's either badly worded or badly designed, or both. That's a basic principle of game design. Sorry if you don't understand the "range is not yet known but..." It has nothing to do with "before range step", but has something to do with the timing where the damage is dealt. Weather control does not need to know about range. It does not "combo" with long/short range cards. OtH has to know because it has been decided (ruled ?) that the vampire inflicts the damage. Thus it has a possible combo with disarm/pulled fangs...

It's not a strike. It's not evironmental either. It's not related to strength... The proposed solution (making it environmental à la Weather control) certainly avoids most of those problems...

Reyda wrote:

When a card summons a lot of questions from players everywhere, it's either badly worded or badly designed, or both. That's a basic principle of game design.

Which is also a false basic principle. It can be the rule who are badly designed, or simply badly explained.

For the rest of your post, it boil down to "I would not have ruled this this way, so the ruling is stupid". Fine, I get it, you disagree with current ruling. And by the way the card change to disarm-like card proposed by Pascal Bertrand also avoid most of thoses problem, without removing the "damage done by the vampire" part.

Ohlmann wrote:

Reyda wrote:

When a card summons a lot of questions from players everywhere, it's either badly worded or badly designed, or both. That's a basic principle of game design.

Which is also a false basic principle. It can be the rule who are badly designed, or simply badly explained.

What you say may make perfect sense when designing a game from ground up.
But when you add a card to a 15 years old game that have rules which works with all tons of other cards already printed, then you must take those rules and those cards in account. Failure in doing so does not mean that the rules are flawed : it means that the card itself is badly designed/ badly worded or both. Just as I said above.
So I beg to differ.

Ohlmann wrote:

For the rest of your post, it boil down to "I would not have ruled this this way, so the ruling is stupid". Fine, I get it, you disagree with current ruling. And by the way the card change to disarm-like card proposed by Pascal Bertrand also avoid most of thoses problem, without removing the "damage done by the vampire" part.

No, it's not really "this ruling is stupid". It's more "There should be no ruling if the card was made while having the rules and interaction with other cards in mind." Which is completely different. The suggestion of weather control is just here to propose something. that's all.
Again, a card that suggest mandatory change on already printed and played cards is ... well, you guessed, badly designed/worded or both. Again

I would not go that far to call a card badly designed, but I must say that it affects the game play very much, and that some rulings that resulted from usage of this card are illogical ( like, you determine range of the damage dealing effect after you dealt it, or you can play cards in that "before range" step before you prevent the damage from OtH or WC - while this game does not have "stack" )

extrala wrote:

Can you tell me why the first two are *not* valid in comparison of the third?

- OtH + Maneuver to long + Majesty Disarm => Not valid.
- OtH + Selective Silence + Disarm => Not valid.
- OtH + Fear of the Void Below + Majesty + Disarm => Valid.

Brainfart.Disarm isn't playable as Fear of the Void Below is played (see ruling from LSJ quoted by Ankha).

I'll change Disarm and Pulled Fangs to get this clear. They'll only be usable at close range.
This should answer all the questions:

* Set range to long + OtH : Disarm can't be played (as range is set to long)
* OtH + set range to long : Disarm can't be played (as range is set to long)
* Fear of the Void Below + OtH + set range to close: range can be played (as range is set to close at the end of the round).

Name: Disarm
[Sabbat:R, SW:R, CE:PB, BH:PN, KMW:PAl, Third:R]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Potence
[pot] Only usable at close range at the end of a round of combat in which this vampire successfully inflicted more damage than the opposing vampire. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going into torpor. Put this card on the opposing vampire and send that vampire into torpor. The vampire with this card has -1 strength. He or she may burn this card by burning 3 blood. A vampire can have only one Disarm.
[POT] As above, but the vampire with this card has -2 strength.

Name: Pulled Fangs
[Jyhad:R2, VTES:R, SW:PB, CE:R2, Anarchs:PAG]
Cardtype: Combat
Only usable at close range at the end of a round of combat in which this minion inflicted more damage than the opposing vampire. Not usable by a minion being burned or going into torpor.
Put this card on the opposing vampire, and this minion inflicts 1 point of damage. The victim cannot hunt until this card is removed. Any vampire(s) may burn this card with two +1 stealth actions. If the victim must hunt and cannot, he or she goes into torpor. A vampire can have only 1 Pulled Fangs.

And for the Improvised Flamethrower question, this Disarm / Fear of the Void Below change doesn't affect anything.
If OtH is played at long range (either because range has been set to long or because the default range is long and we're in the "before range is set" step), the Flamethrower explodes.