Vlad Tepes Makes Third Tradition Progeny as the Justicar of a Non-Camarilla Clan
04 Jan 2024 08:28 #110259
by Ankha
Sorry for the delay, it was a tricky one.
The progeny will be of the same clan as Vlad.
Reasons:
Third Tradition: Progeny doesn't require a clan, and doesn't care about which clan (if any) is tied to the title. It cares about the vampire's clan. So Vlad could play it as a Giovanni Justicar but would still be seen as a Tzimisce by the card. Or Vlad could play it as Prince of Buenos Aires, and the progeny would be Tzimisce.
This is NOT a reversal of www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/69627-vlad-tepes-regent?start=12#69696 since Anarch Secession cares explicitly about the title ("If he or she had a city title, put this card on him or her as a title card to represent the title of baron of the same city...")
Replied by Ankha on topic Vlad Tepes Makes Third Tradition Progeny as the Justicar of a Non-Camarilla Clan
I believe I can do this, but it's weird enough that I probably should get a ruling before risking it in live play. It's a simple question, but just in case the answer is no, will you please explain ALL of the ways I went wrong / misunderstood rulings? Thanks in advance -- here's the question.
QUESTION: "Can Vlad Tepes perform Third Tradition: Progeny as the Giovanni Justicar, and will it result in GIOVANNI OFFSPRING?"
Sorry for the delay, it was a tricky one.
The progeny will be of the same clan as Vlad.
Reasons:
Third Tradition: Progeny doesn't require a clan, and doesn't care about which clan (if any) is tied to the title. It cares about the vampire's clan. So Vlad could play it as a Giovanni Justicar but would still be seen as a Tzimisce by the card. Or Vlad could play it as Prince of Buenos Aires, and the progeny would be Tzimisce.
This is NOT a reversal of www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/69627-vlad-tepes-regent?start=12#69696 since Anarch Secession cares explicitly about the title ("If he or she had a city title, put this card on him or her as a title card to represent the title of baron of the same city...")
Moot.If the answer is yes, then I have a fun followup question based on previous rulings about Vlad being able to spoof city titles that don't exist in the game:
"Can Vlad Tepes perform 3rd Tradition as the justicar of a made-up clan (e.g. the Earthwurm Justicar), resulting in progeny of that newly-named clan?"
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
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18 Jan 2024 07:59 - 18 Jan 2024 08:05 #110400
by Ankha
The title must be seen as Camarilla < Justicar < of clan X.
A Baron title: Anarch < Baron < of city Y
The lowest common denominator between "Camarilla < Justicar < of clan Giovanni" and "Requires a justicar" is "Camarilla < Justicar".
The lowest common denominator between "Anarch < Baron < of Taipei" and "Requires an Anarch" is "Anarch".
In the first case, the clan is irrelevant and ignored.
In the second case, the title is irrelevant and ignored (a card requiring an Anarch does not require a Baron, and furthermore does not require a Baron of a specific city)
Open War ("Requires a baron") is a card that sees Vlad as a Anarch Baron, but the city is ignored.
Anarch Secession ("Requires a ready, non-anarch, titled vampire.") sees Vlad as a prince (as an example), and since it's explicitly refering to the city tied to the title, as the Prince of Y (in whole).
Third Tradition: Progeny ("Requires a ready non-Sterile prince or justicar.") sees Vlad as a prince or a justicar, but since it's not refering to the city or clan tied to the title, and since the card doesn't require a vampire of a specific clan, it sees Vlad as a Camarilla Justicar, and a vampire whose clan is Tzimisce.
Replied by Ankha on topic Vlad Tepes Makes Third Tradition Progeny as the Justicar of a Non-Camarilla Clan
A card that requires something will always be played using the minimum requirement (the lowest common denominator).
[LSJ 20050128]
> But she's still non-Camarilla as far as the Closed Session is
> concerned, because it doesn't require a Camarilla vampire, correct?
It requires a Justicar, and therefore a Camarilla (since you cannot
be the former save that you are the latter).[LSJ 20050130]
> Yeah, but why do the cards consider her Camarilla as well? When it
"Requires a justicar" is shorthand for "Requires a Camarilla vampire
with a justicar title".
Just like the Discipline symbol is shorthand for "Requires a vampire
with one [or two] levels of the Discipline."
The above should lead to that when faking to be a Justicar of X that one must also be faking to be of the sect Camarilla of clan X.
The title must be seen as Camarilla < Justicar < of clan X.
A Baron title: Anarch < Baron < of city Y
The lowest common denominator between "Camarilla < Justicar < of clan Giovanni" and "Requires a justicar" is "Camarilla < Justicar".
The lowest common denominator between "Anarch < Baron < of Taipei" and "Requires an Anarch" is "Anarch".
In the first case, the clan is irrelevant and ignored.
In the second case, the title is irrelevant and ignored (a card requiring an Anarch does not require a Baron, and furthermore does not require a Baron of a specific city)
Open War ("Requires a baron") is a card that sees Vlad as a Anarch Baron, but the city is ignored.
Anarch Secession ("Requires a ready, non-anarch, titled vampire.") sees Vlad as a prince (as an example), and since it's explicitly refering to the city tied to the title, as the Prince of Y (in whole).
Third Tradition: Progeny ("Requires a ready non-Sterile prince or justicar.") sees Vlad as a prince or a justicar, but since it's not refering to the city or clan tied to the title, and since the card doesn't require a vampire of a specific clan, it sees Vlad as a Camarilla Justicar, and a vampire whose clan is Tzimisce.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
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