file Vlad Tepes Makes Third Tradition Progeny as the Justicar of a Non-Camarilla Clan

16 Nov 2023 17:05 #109860 by Timo

[
I suppose one interesting possible outcome would be a ruling that says a card that requires a sect-based title also implicitly has a sect requirement to play (e.g. No Secrets requires Laibon because magaji is a Laibon title)


It already exist :

groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/HVy8iPUxNbI/m/ZHGTnprQjGUJ
LSJ
28 janv. 2005, 03:41:07
à
Emmit Svenson wrote:
> But she's still non-Camarilla as far as the Closed Session is
> concerned, because it doesn't require a Camarilla vampire, correct?
It requires a Justicar, and therefore a Camarilla (since you cannot
be the former save that you are the latter).

Basically, it says that Kemintri can play closed session which require a justicar and be seen by it as a camarilla vampire.

Closed Session
Requires a prince, justicar or Inner Circle member. Only usable during the polling step of a political action before votes and ballots are cast.

Non-Camarilla vampires cannot cast votes or ballots during this referendum.


So I guess the question here is to know if a Justicar title "requires" a clan attached and if this clan carry to the progeny.
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23 Dec 2023 17:30 #110161 by Whisker
Pushing this up, as I'm curious for the answer.
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04 Jan 2024 08:28 #110259 by Ankha

I believe I can do this, but it's weird enough that I probably should get a ruling before risking it in live play. It's a simple question, but just in case the answer is no, will you please explain ALL of the ways I went wrong / misunderstood rulings? Thanks in advance -- here's the question.

QUESTION: "Can Vlad Tepes perform Third Tradition: Progeny as the Giovanni Justicar, and will it result in GIOVANNI OFFSPRING?"


Sorry for the delay, it was a tricky one.

The progeny will be of the same clan as Vlad.

Reasons:
Third Tradition: Progeny doesn't require a clan, and doesn't care about which clan (if any) is tied to the title. It cares about the vampire's clan. So Vlad could play it as a Giovanni Justicar but would still be seen as a Tzimisce by the card. Or Vlad could play it as Prince of Buenos Aires, and the progeny would be Tzimisce.

This is NOT a reversal of www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/69627-vlad-tepes-regent?start=12#69696 since Anarch Secession cares explicitly about the title ("If he or she had a city title, put this card on him or her as a title card to represent the title of baron of the same city...")

If the answer is yes, then I have a fun followup question based on previous rulings about Vlad being able to spoof city titles that don't exist in the game:
"Can Vlad Tepes perform 3rd Tradition as the justicar of a made-up clan (e.g. the Earthwurm Justicar), resulting in progeny of that newly-named clan?"

Moot.

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05 Jan 2024 15:11 #110274 by inm8

QUESTION: "Can Vlad Tepes perform Third Tradition: Progeny as the Giovanni Justicar, and will it result in GIOVANNI OFFSPRING?"


[...]

The progeny will be of the same clan as Vlad.

Reasons:
Third Tradition: Progeny doesn't require a clan, and doesn't care about which clan (if any) is tied to the title. It cares about the vampire's clan. So Vlad could play it as a Giovanni Justicar but would still be seen as a Tzimisce by the card. Or Vlad could play it as Prince of Buenos Aires, and the progeny would be Tzimisce.


This ruling is in my opinion not consistent with other rulings regarding playing cards "as something else". Even if Third Tradition: Progeny doesn't require a clan and doesn't care about which clan is tied to a title it doesn't change the fact that when faking a clan-specific title the card would have to see them as such when referencing it as part of its effect.

The rulebook states (highlight in bold by me):

Some allies have the ability to play certain cards “as a vampire.” In these cases, the ally is treated as a vampire for all effects generated by the play of the card, including duration effects (like “for the remainder of combat”).

Only Camarilla vampires can hold the Camarilla titles primogen, prince, justicar, and Inner Circle member. Additionally, each clan’s justicar and Inner Circle titles are unique (see Contested Titles) and can only be held by vampires of that clan.


Additionally, we have the below rulings elaborating that elements that must be true when faking something are also inherently faked as part of that effect e.g. when faking a Prince one is also faking Camarilla as the Prince title can only be held by a Camarilla.

[LSJ 20050128]
> But she's still non-Camarilla as far as the Closed Session is
> concerned, because it doesn't require a Camarilla vampire, correct?
It requires a Justicar, and therefore a Camarilla (since you cannot
be the former save that you are the latter).

[LSJ 20050130]
> Yeah, but why do the cards consider her Camarilla as well? When it
"Requires a justicar" is shorthand for "Requires a Camarilla vampire
with a justicar title".

Just like the Discipline symbol is shorthand for "Requires a vampire
with one [or two] levels of the Discipline."


The above should lead to that when faking to be a Justicar of X that one must also be faking to be of the sect Camarilla of clan X.

To put the card Third Tradition: Progeny in play is as much part of the effect of playing the card as the part of the card that defines what it becomes... therefore while resolving the effect of putting the card in play to become a vampire should fall within the "aura" of the faking effect and thus become a vampire of clan X.

"+1 stealth action. Requires a ready non-Sterile prince or justicar.
Put this card in play; it becomes a non-unique 1-capacity {Camarilla} vampire of the same clan as the acting vampire."


If the text would read something along the lines of below I would agree with the ruling but as it stands I do not.

"Put this card in play. After the action ends it becomes a non-unique 1-capacity {Camarilla} vampire of the same clan as the acting vampire."

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17 Jan 2024 10:56 #110393 by inm8
Would be great to get clarity on whether or not when impersonating a Justicar of X one must also be impersonating to be of the sect Camarilla of clan X?

If not, why not, and how is it different from a card eg requiring a Baron that implicitly is a card that requires a vampire of the sect Anarch?


Also would be great to get more clarity as to why the effect of the card (Third Tradition: Progeny) is to make a distinction/separation between the part of the effect that puts the card into play and the part of the effect that defines what the card becomes when put into play, why are not both part impacted by the impersonation that is currently in effect?

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18 Jan 2024 07:59 - 18 Jan 2024 08:05 #110400 by Ankha

[LSJ 20050128]
> But she's still non-Camarilla as far as the Closed Session is
> concerned, because it doesn't require a Camarilla vampire, correct?
It requires a Justicar, and therefore a Camarilla (since you cannot
be the former save that you are the latter).

[LSJ 20050130]
> Yeah, but why do the cards consider her Camarilla as well? When it
"Requires a justicar" is shorthand for "Requires a Camarilla vampire
with a justicar title".

Just like the Discipline symbol is shorthand for "Requires a vampire
with one [or two] levels of the Discipline."


The above should lead to that when faking to be a Justicar of X that one must also be faking to be of the sect Camarilla of clan X.

A card that requires something will always be played using the minimum requirement (the lowest common denominator).

The title must be seen as Camarilla < Justicar < of clan X.
A Baron title: Anarch < Baron < of city Y

The lowest common denominator between "Camarilla < Justicar < of clan Giovanni" and "Requires a justicar" is "Camarilla < Justicar".
The lowest common denominator between "Anarch < Baron < of Taipei" and "Requires an Anarch" is "Anarch".

In the first case, the clan is irrelevant and ignored.
In the second case, the title is irrelevant and ignored (a card requiring an Anarch does not require a Baron, and furthermore does not require a Baron of a specific city)

Open War ("Requires a baron") is a card that sees Vlad as a Anarch Baron, but the city is ignored.
Anarch Secession ("Requires a ready, non-anarch, titled vampire.") sees Vlad as a prince (as an example), and since it's explicitly refering to the city tied to the title, as the Prince of Y (in whole).
Third Tradition: Progeny ("Requires a ready non-Sterile prince or justicar.") sees Vlad as a prince or a justicar, but since it's not refering to the city or clan tied to the title, and since the card doesn't require a vampire of a specific clan, it sees Vlad as a Camarilla Justicar, and a vampire whose clan is Tzimisce.

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Last edit: 18 Jan 2024 08:05 by Ankha.
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