file Vlad Tepes Makes Third Tradition Progeny as the Justicar of a Non-Camarilla Clan

02 Nov 2023 15:08 #109733 by Killiam
I believe I can do this, but it's weird enough that I probably should get a ruling before risking it in live play. It's a simple question, but just in case the answer is no, will you please explain ALL of the ways I went wrong / misunderstood rulings? Thanks in advance -- here's the question.

QUESTION: "Can Vlad Tepes perform Third Tradition: Progeny as the Giovanni Justicar, and will it result in GIOVANNI OFFSPRING?"

If the answer is yes, then I have a fun followup question based on previous rulings about Vlad being able to spoof city titles that don't exist in the game:
"Can Vlad Tepes perform 3rd Tradition as the justicar of a made-up clan (e.g. the Earthwurm Justicar), resulting in progeny of that newly-named clan?"

Card text pasted below.

Thank you!!
-Bill Troxel / Killiam

Name: Vlad Tepes
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Tzimisce
Group: 3
Capacity: 10
Discipline: aus ANI DOM PRO THA VIC
Independent: Vlad uses and can play cards requiring a title or a sect as if he had that required title or were of that required sect. +1 bleed.

Name: Third Tradition: Progeny
AKA: The Third Tradition: Progeny
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 1 blood
+1 stealth action. Requires a ready non-Sterile prince or justicar.
Put this card in play; it becomes a non-unique 1-capacity {Camarilla} vampire of the same clan as the acting vampire. You may go through your library (shuffle afterward), ash heap or hand to find a Discipline card for this vampire. Move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire to this vampire. This vampire cannot take any actions this turn.

-Killiam
(Bill Troxel)
"How did some slip of a girly boy from communist East Berlin become the internationally ignored song stylist barely standing before you?" -Hedwig Robinson

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02 Nov 2023 16:14 #109734 by Whisker
Vlad's ability does not allow him to impersonate a clan.
So even if he could play (probably can but not sure) a card as X Justicar, his clan is still Tzimisce. So progeny would also be Tzimisce.

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02 Nov 2023 16:48 - 02 Nov 2023 16:52 #109738 by Killiam
Is there not ruling precedent for Vlad to inherit the necessary qualities of a title while he acts as a vampire spoofing that title, even though it is not those qualities he is directly spoofing?

IIRC, if Vlad plays Scourge as a Priscus, he does so as a Sabbat vampire because Priscus is a Sabbat title -- even though Scourge itself has no sect requirement, which disqualifies him from using his ability to directly spoof a sect for the purposes of playing/using the card. So he gets the sect as an implied quality of the title he is spoofing.

By extension, playing a card as a Justicar implies clan, as that title is always necessarily clan-specific. Would he not have all the qualities of that title for the purposes of playing the card, thus indirectly counting as a member of the clan without actually having to spoof the clan directly (which of course, he can't)?

Whisker, please let me know if you are on the rules team and if your comment is an official ruling. If not, but you have a link to an official ruling clarifying this, could you please share it here?

Thanks and cheers!

[Edit: changed wording of "Priscus requires Sabbat" to more correct and precise "Priscus is a Sabbat title"]

-Killiam
(Bill Troxel)
"How did some slip of a girly boy from communist East Berlin become the internationally ignored song stylist barely standing before you?" -Hedwig Robinson

Last edit: 02 Nov 2023 16:52 by Killiam. Reason: Changed wording of "Priscus requires Sabbat" to more correct and precise "Priscus is a Sabbat title"

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03 Nov 2023 06:47 #109743 by Whisker
I'm not affiliated with rules team in any way. But I think I found the ruling you referred to: www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/69627-vlad-tepes-regent?start=12#69696

"jamesatzephyr wrote:
Also, what happens if Vlad plays Anarch Secession? Can he choose to be a Prince/Archbishop of somewhere for the purposes of playing the card, and thus become the Baron of somewhere?
+1 stealth action. Requires a ready, non-anarch, titled vampire.
...If he or she had a city title, put this card on him or her as a title card to represent the title of baron of the same city.

Yes."

Interesting... by this light it would seem Vlad can choose to be Giovanni Justicar.
There is a list of clans, but is there a list of allowed clans? Can we choose can clan something silly? And will this work with clan impersonation also?

Let's wait for Ankha to pipe in.

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03 Nov 2023 13:18 - 03 Nov 2023 13:24 #109746 by Timo

By extension, playing a card as a Justicar implies clan, as that title is always necessarily clan-specific. Would he not have all the qualities of that title for the purposes of playing the card, thus indirectly counting as a member of the clan without actually having to spoof the clan directly (which of course, he can't)?


On one hand you ask if Vlad can "spoof" (I therefore make it the official word for "play a card as if", thank you for your contribution !) a non-camarilla clan or even a non existant clan.

And on the other hand, you make your case by saying that it should be possible because a Justicar Title needs a clan.

BUT, Vlad Tepes already as a title. He is a Tzimisce.

So if he play a Progeny as a Justicar, he does so as the Tzimisce Justicar and so would make a Tzimisce Progeny.

Likewise, if Vlad already had a city title and played anarch secession, he would be the baron of the same city.

At least, it is my interpretation of the rulings and the cards.

Edit : by the way, there is no such thing as a "non-camarilla clan" since the RTR 30-11-2020
Last edit: 03 Nov 2023 13:24 by Timo.

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03 Nov 2023 19:07 #109755 by Killiam

And on the other hand, you make your case by saying that it should be possible because a Justicar Title needs a clan.


What the justicar title "needs" (i.e., requires) is not of concern to this case, as the title is being spoofed rather than being taken/possessed. I'm making a stronger statement: any given justicar title IMPLIES a clan. That implication may (depending on ruling) fall through into the text of the card being played, in this case, Third Tradition: Progeny, which makes explicit mention of clan.

To clarify: according to the rulebook, justicar titles are unique, with each different justicar title belonging to a clan. (See section 6. Vampire Sects, under heading Camarilla.) As such, when Vlad plays a card as-a-justicar to meet requirements, I believe he must name exactly which unique justicar title he is spoofing. After all, that's what he is required to do when he spoofs a city title ---name which city--- as political control of a city is also unique/contestable, on a city-by-city basis.

Really, the question of whether or not the implied clan of the unique justicar title being spoofed falls through into the card text of Third Tradition (where it makes mention of clan) is the heart of this rules question. Everything else is of secondary concern to that question. I'm actually quite confident that Vlad can spoof Giovanni Justicar; I'm just trying to lay every conceivable, reasonable objection/uncertainty/weirdness bare in my question to facilitate everyone's understanding of the nature of the ruling when it comes.

Likewise, if Vlad already had a city title and played anarch secession, he would be the baron of the same city.

Quite sure that that's incorrect. So long as the card requires a title, Vlad can spoof any title that fulfills the requirements of the card, regardless of any title he currently possesses -- even if his present title would already be sufficient to meet the card requirements.

Edit : by the way, there is no such thing as a "non-camarilla clan" since the RTR 30-11-2020


Of course, we are all aware of this. It's still worth using the term in the subject line to emphasize (for the sake of a rule's team member reviewing this) that Vlad would be spoofing a title that has not yet been seen in the game, rather than drawing from the pool of established justicar titles extant. Again, I endeavor to expose any potential quirks of the issue in the way I present rules questions, so they're available for quick reference in the ruling.

Really my concern is whether or not the clan of the spoofed justicar title affects the clan of the Third Tradition being played. All this other stuff is window dressing to make sure we are all on the same page --- for which I have apparently done a poor job. Hopefully this all clarifies.

Cheers!

-Killiam
(Bill Troxel)
"How did some slip of a girly boy from communist East Berlin become the internationally ignored song stylist barely standing before you?" -Hedwig Robinson

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