Combat - why is it currently considered weak ?

Everybody know that combat in general tend to be rather weak - the very thin anti-combat setup of a lot of deck, and the use of animalism combat (that can be shutdown extremely easily if someone want to) are sufficent proof for me. But why ? I think there is some universal reasons.

* combat is easy to foil. Even without anti-combat card, you already have generic card like Secure Haven, Faerie ward, or Evil eye that cancel any actions. When you actually get in combat, you may then use combat end. Or dodge. Or prevention. Or maneuver. Very few card can help against all of theses at once, and most does not help to actually do thing in combat (think Immortal Grapple)

* a lot of combat card are useless alone. Disarm, Immortal Grapple, Increased Strength, Pursuit, Blur, Octopod, Taste of vitae does basically nothing and can often be required by other card to actually do enough damage to be worthwhile

* combat is rarely radical. Destroying vampire is nigh-impossible and often require an enormous amount of setup. Putting them to torpor is possible but hard and will often require additionnal effort to be worthwhile. And it's not really better than a mind rape or even a spirit marionet

* combat is extremely slow to reap its reward. If you don't put someone in torpor, you basically have done nothing to win. No pool damage, the same number of blocker or deflector than before. Even if you do put someone in torpor, you still may not be much better since your prey may still have minions left. In fact, as some deck can prove, the "tap the vampire" part of Deep song is often as strong as, or even better than the "enter combat" part.

* combat permanent are rare, often not enough by themselves, and often easy to destroy. Melee weapon is the prime example ; they are foiled way too easily for theirs cost and only does one part of the combat setup. The Talbot Chainsaw show that combat permanent can be worthwhile, when they do the entire chain at once (or at least a significant part of it).

This is not too much of a problem in a casual setup, because often people find combat fun and either want to do combat or do not try too much to do extremely good decj. It's more of a competitive problems, for people that want to win and / or that play mainly tournament.

What can be done ? I'm not too sure. Combat regroup an awful lot of card and concept, so doing a 'fast' solution is not too easy, and changing rules to help combat can easily change the problem to "Combat - why is it overpowered ?".

If anything were to be done, I would personnaly do two thing :
* add the rule that entering combat alway tap both party, and rewrite Cat's guidance and related card to reflect this.

At least, if you rush someone and fail to destroy him, you would have tapped someone and could consider bleed him or something

* add a way to burn vampire without diablerizing it and without card. Something like a action that cost 1 blood and destroy a torporized vampire. Or simply that if you have three or more unhealed damage, you burn instead of going to torpor

Putting people to torpor (without them being empty), while problematic, is not too threatening. Diablerie can easily cost you a minion, and most deck can't spare a vampire for this. Specific card exist, but they are extremely costly. That a big payload problem for combat strategy.

The anti-diablerie card (thing like sixth tradition or Communal Justice) could then be rewrited to work against vampire that destroy other vampire, not just diabolist.

But thoses ideas are not realistic, because they are extremely big rules changes, that need an extreme lot of testing and would encounter an extreme amount of resistance. And still, simply adding support card is unlikely to really help the matter, especially because there would be a lot of discipline to staff.

So, what do you think ? Should combat be abandoned to his fate of fifth wheel and / or support of workeable strategy ? Am I too radical in my interpretation ? Is there something that is both not too game-changing and combat enabling enough ?

My take on it is that it's just fine and more combat should absolutely not be encouraged. The main reason for this is that (heavy) combat ruins the gaming experience. Sitting with all your minions in torpor and not being able to influence because it will oust you faster is not very enjoyable. To those saying pack defense: nothing short of ridiculous amounts of fortitude or obedience like cards will save you from a dedicated combat deck. Una decks are boring because others don't get to play, why should we help another archetype that denies others from playing? I see combat decks as the same crap as sensory deprivation decks or scobax decks, only the kingmaking is more pronounced.

Right now combat cards have their role in some decks as a complement. Combat cards are very viable, pure combat isn't. That is just the way it should be in my opinion.

Louhi wrote:

The main reason for this is that (heavy) combat ruins the gaming experience.

Unlike, for example, sensory deprivation, mind rape, spirit marionet, pentex subvertion, etc.

The point is, for now a deck that actually try to put vampires out of commission must devote so much ressources to have even limited results that they simply can't win. As a consequence, deck are packing no defense or extremely light one.

If you can't somewhat put a deck into check with a reasonable amount of card you can be reassured that he won't win too.

And, yes, the goal should not to have vampires so fragile that they can be disabled easily in a lot of number. That would be annoying, but it's far from being the case for now.

Another relevant thing to keep in mind is that combat eliminates the minions of other players, preventing them from doing anything and making it rather boring for them.

If you're being bled or voted out, you generally still have your minions and can do your thing and/or try to mount a defense.

When all your minions are in torpor but you still have a bunch of pool (but it's pointless to bring another guy out because you'll go straight to torpor before you can take an action), it's rather boring to play. *Maybe* you'll be lucky enough to get some cross-table rescues, but then your empty guys just keep you alive a little bit longer and will go back to torpor again soon enough. Similar things happen with "lockdown" decks like Sensory Deprivation.

The fact that combat is comparatively weak is a problem, but the flipside is that if combat is too powerful and/or prevalent then games becomes incredibly boring for people who have just wasted 1-2 hours of their time sitting around on their hands.

Even now, you still occasionally see XXX eats the World type decks (usually focusing on Tariq or Una, though I've also seen variations using Ariadne or Hardestadt and older versions using Muaziz or Tyler). Weenie Dragons Breath Rounds, or weenie Vicissitude can be a terror (and *very* effective) but it's boring to play against. I have a Tupdog deck that tends to do extremely well, but I rarely play it in casual games because I *know* that it's a very boring (and frustrating) deck to play against for the other 4 players (and I always apologize afterward on the few occasions that I do play it).

I enjoyed your post but I will only comment on this question:

Ohlmann wrote:

Is there something that is both not too game-changing and combat enabling enough?

Yeah, bleed powerz. Try a pot/pre or a pot/dom deck, and use a few multi-purpose bleed cards, and work your ratios to be very precise.

I have been using this deck to great effect for the last year:
(formatting may be lost, sorry but I'm not going to convert it)

Deck Name : Tiny POT v1.81
Author : Kevin J. Mergen
Description : POT/dom with tiny deck and Ashur Tablets instead

Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min:5 max:6 average:5.58333

---

1x Gaspare Giovanni 6 POT Giovanni:2
1x Sundown 6 POT * Nosferatu:3
1x Pug Jackson 6 POT primogen Brujah:3
1x Sela 6 POT bishop !Brujah:2
1x Lisette Vizquel 6 POT DOM bishop Lasombra:2
1x Judah 6 POT dom primogen Nosferatu:2
1x Talley, the Hound 6 POT dom Lasombra:2
1x Terry 5 POT dom Blood Bro:2
1x Wah Chun-Yuen 5 POT dom !Brujah:3
1x Dr. Julius Sutphen 5 POT dom bishop Lasombra:3
1x Olivia 5 POT bishop !Nosferatu:2
1x Amelia, The Blood 5 POT Nosferatu:3

Library [70 cards]

---

Master [17]
9x Ashur Tablets
1x Visit from the Capuchin
3x Dominate
1x Fame
2x Sudden Reversal
1x Lilith's Blessing

Action [19]
8x Govern the Unaligned
1x Graverobbing
1x Far Mastery
3x Preternatural Strength
6x Bum's Rush

Equipment [3]
3x Leather Jacket

Combat [22]
2x Trap
4x Immortal Grapple
7x Slam
2x Disarm
2x Pulled Fangs
5x Taste of Vitae

Reaction [8]
4x Deflection
2x On the Qui Vive
2x Wake with Evening's Freshness

Event [1]
1x Dragonbound

echiang wrote:

Weenie Dragons Breath Rounds, or weenie Vicissitude can be a terror (and *very* effective) but it's boring to play against. I have a Tupdog deck that tends to do extremely well, but I rarely play it in casual games because I *know* that it's a very boring (and frustrating) deck to play against for the other 4 players (and I always apologize afterward on the few occasions that I do play it).

I reject the assertion earlier that Animalism combat is weak. I have an ANI combat deck that wrecks virtually any non-dedicated combat deck because of the versatility of Deep Song and the cheap two-card and often 6 damage combo of Aid from Bats + Carrion Crows. For this reason, I rarely play the deck and find myself backrushing a majority of the time. Getting pinched for no good reason between combat and your pred is really no fun and feels unfair when it happens.