Combat - why is it currently considered weak ?

Ohlmann wrote:

What can be done ?...

If anything were to be done...

Should combat be abandoned...?

Nothing should be done.
Nothing should be done.
Nothing should be done.

Combat is not a good strategy to pursue. IMO, and this is coming from someone who loves to build and play combat decks, it is the worst of the six basic tactics you can focus on when building a deck.

It would be very easy to make new combat cards which help the "combat" disciplines. But really, why bother? Making a horrible tactic not as bad still leaves you with a very bad tactic. It is much better to improve things that are lacking, *THAT ARE NOT COMBAT*, and the rest will go along with it.

Think about it. If all a Potence version of Govern the Unaligned (that didn't require Orun) existed, then Potence decks would instantly become credible threats in every meta game. Potence decks "Bleed" or "Payload" tactical strength would be significantly increased, and they could use their significant combat abilities to back it up. Everyone knows how Potence "stealth" works. But the discipline cannot do things that are worth blocking and therefore it is doomed to fail most of the time.

I am actually not advocating a Potence GtU, though another action card which helps directly oust one's prey would be a very good thing.

KevinM wrote:

brandonsantacruz wrote:

I reject the assertion earlier that Animalism combat is weak. I have an ANI combat deck that wrecks virtually any non-dedicated combat deck because of the versatility of Deep Song and the cheap two-card and often 6 damage combo of Aid from Bats + Carrion Crows.

Aaaaaaaand dies to S:CE.

It's pretty bad when you spend 2-3 cards per action, I spend 1, and I get off scot free. I don't think this puts Animalism Combat in the "weak" category, not by any means, but it does show how ridiculous S:CE can be.

Given the prevalence of ANI combat at the NAC, I know at least one player that was so irritated that he is spending the next year making decks with S:CE exclusively, just to wreck all the ANI combat (and so Matt Morgan doesn't repeat).

Sure ANI combat dies to S:CE that time. It's the 2nd, 3rd and 4th rush that really sent the point home.

As for using a ton of S:CE vs ANI combat, it can be effective, but at a cost. I advocate that strategy, but Obedience is so much better. If your rushers don't have built-in rushes, not getting to cycle those 2-3 cards (Taste for 0 when need be) can keep other rushes from showing up.

Jeff wrote:

Combat is not a good strategy to pursue. IMO, and this is coming from someone who loves to build and play combat decks, it is the worst of the six basic tactics you can focus on when building a deck.

But it could. For now, combat does not help at all to any strategy, that's what you are saying. Shouldn't it help, at least a bit ?

I share the idea that combat is for now the worst strategy, and I believe unlike it could be changed for something intersting, but I'm not sure how.

For animalism combat, it may be card efficient, but I don't believe someone who say it's not weak about any kind of dedicated combat or anti-combat setup. It play two or three card before strike, so you just waste our entire combo to a S:CE ; also, it does not a lot of damage. It work purely because people put next to zero defense, so when you get into combat you don't have much to do.

Ohlmann wrote:

For animalism combat, it may be card efficient, but I don't believe someone who say it's not weak about any kind of dedicated combat or anti-combat setup. It play two or three card before strike, so you just waste our entire combo to a S:CE ; also, it does not a lot of damage. It work purely because people put next to zero defense, so when you get into combat you don't have much to do.

Well, as it turns out, focused tournament decks can't afford to waste a lot of hand space on cards that are only useful if someone else is playing a specific strategy. The S:CE cards that do see play either have a role in the deck's pool offense/defense (Majesty, Earth Meld) or are trivially easy to cycle (Force of Personality).

bakija wrote:

Rush decks *can* win, and do on a regular, but less frequent than, like, stealth and bleed do.

Actually, pure S&B seems to be doing relatively badly these days. I'm inclined to attribute this shift to Villein, Eyes of Argus, Deep Song and all the recent love towards PRE-vote.

Jeff wrote:

Combat is not a good strategy to pursue. IMO, and this is coming from someone who loves to build and play combat decks, it is the worst of the six basic tactics you can focus on when building a deck.

I dunno--there are certainly worse strategies to follow, but they tend to be very fringey.

Combat as a strategy in and of itself, is difficult to win with. Combat as an adjunct to another basic strategy can be perfectly reasonably--like, ANI bats/crows combat in and of itself isn't usually that handy due to S:CE totally hosing it. But if it is in a deck with 12 Raven Spies and a bunch of untap, you have a solid wall deck that can kill folks on a regular basis, but if it doesn't, it isn't the end of the world. The best kind of pure combat decks tend to be weenie potence kind of decks, as they have a lot of minions and a lot of actions, and can default to bleeding for 5 a turn with 5 guys, but as the defense in those decks is basically "wreck your predator", it often goes off the rails anyway.

Think about it. If all a Potence version of Govern the Unaligned (that didn't require Orun) existed, then Potence decks would instantly become credible threats in every meta game.

I don't know that that actually would be the case--Potence already has Computer Hacking (which is one less bleed but 1 less blood too) and POT/dom is pretty easy to come by (I won a tournament last year with POT/dom; lots of Govern and Deflections backed up by lots of Thrown Gates and Target Vitals). Potence can relatively easily get a payload either through Presence or Dominate (or Computer Hacking) already. The payload isn't the issue. It is the deck around the payload.

I am actually not advocating a Potence GtU, though another action card which helps directly oust one's prey would be a very good thing.

There is plenty of payload available; Presence, Dominate, Computer Hacking for weenies, Codex of the Edenic Grounds Keepers is really good for combat decks, Brutal Infuence. The potential for bleeding folks out is already there and combined with Fame, Tension, Dargonboned, and some of the other fringier combat dunk oust plans, there is plenty already there. The issue is that the more payload you have, the less consistent your combat is and the less consistent your combat is, the more likely you are to go off the rails.