Combat - why is it currently considered weak ?

Jeff wrote:

In my mind, your Kuta Face Smash card would bump Potence almost into the realm of a third tier bleed discipline, where bleed is more broadly defined as direct pool damage (like Enticement).

KFS is at 0 stealth on a discipline that is not often paired up with Obfuscate, and you're rarely using *any* stealth action-mods in a combat-forward deck.

Enticement is at 0 stealth on a discipline that is almost *always* paired up with Obfuscate and you're almost *always* using it.

That's a *huge* difference. Stop thinking about cards in a vacuum.

Jeff wrote:

bakija wrote:

I just wish more people had 8-10 Horseshoes so we could actually see what that card truly does in the wild. Stupid small print runs of giant exciting sets.

I've tried it in a bunch of different decks and am decidedly unimpressed.

If you use it with Potence combat as a deterrent system, you're basically playing bruise/bleed (with all of the problems that entails) except that being unblocked means that your prey loses two blood from a vampire rather than three pool. Also, your crypt basically sucks, becuase the best weenie-ish POT crypt isn't actually very weenie-ish, and for defense you have...Touch of Pain.

If you use it with stealth as a delivery system, you're basically playing stealth/bleed except that being unblocked means that your prey loses two blood from a vampire rather than three pool. And the crypt for obf/POT is of course even worse than the crypt for mono-POT, but it doesn't come bundled with any more defensive options, meaning you're paying more for your vampires but are still relying on...Touch of Pain for defense.

I like John Bell's Horseshoes deck, but I suspect it won a tournament more due to pilot skill than deck awesomeness (because I have stolen that deck and played it and my inferior pilot skill meant that I lost a lot with it, as with variations of the deck that I built and played).

EDIT: I should add that I could see the card being useful as prayer tech, but there aren't a lot of decks that have the POT to take advantage of it but aren't better off using that POT for combat instead. Jay Kristoff does have a Nos deck that had, IIRC, two copies of 'Shoes in it, and that was probably the best place for it that I've seen.

bakija wrote:

Yeah, Mictantechuli doesn't like Horseshoes. I just wish more people had 8-10 Horseshoes so we could actually see what that card truly does in the wild. Stupid small print runs of giant exciting sets.

Heh. I have, like, 20 of them. I was a market speculator and bought up all the singles before anyone knew what they were good for. It was kind of like inside trading...

Horseshoes is also easier to acquire than many of the other KoT commons because it was reprinted in the Heirs to the Blood starters (2 in the Samedi deck).

Of course HttB starters were underproduced even more than KoT, but still the overall supply of Horseshoes is greater than say, Neonate Breach or Torrent. Plus, the Samedi deck seemed to be the least popular of the four.

Well, I just don't agree with the question in the topic. How, lastly, the most succesfull basic archetype (bleed/politics/combat) can be considered weak?

alek wrote:

Well, I just don't agree with the question in the topic. How, lastly, the most succesfull basic archetype (bleed/politics/combat) can be considered weak?

Well, we don't play the same game. Combat is extremely weak compared to other way to deal with minions, to the point an increasingly big number of deck don't pack any defence against it because it's just that weak.

Bruise & bleed does not work too well. Pure combat don't work (and I don't think it should, but it still is not a working strategy). The help that combat give for voting or putting your action throught is weak for the number of card you need for this.

Maybe you're thinking of an archetype I haven't understood, but it's not "successful" for the time being.

Combat is extremely weak compared to other way to deal with minions, to the point an increasingly big number of deck don't pack any defence against it because it's just that weak.

I would agree to it, if you would wrote this post few years ago. Now, combat is very strong and people are including a lot of anti-combat cards because of it.
Just check the results of f.e. last EC (or the previous) to see how succesfull combat decks are in biggest tournaments. EC 2011 winner - combat, other finalists: two combat decks, two decks with strong anty-combat (obediences in one, majesties in the other)