question-circle What should be done with Reversal of Fortune?

09 Apr 2012 12:58 - 09 Apr 2012 12:59 #27528 by Izaak
Nobody is claiming they are having problems with Tupdogs.

I, and many others, have been claiming that Tupdogs are either hardcountered and are a free VP or generally ruin the game for 4 other people. Just like Reversal of Fortunes does. That they are "fun" and "thematic" (and also "useless") cards when used in small quantities doesn't change the fact that both these cards make the game they are used in stupid from the start.

or any rush decks for that matter, tupdogs aren't really any worse than say weenie potence


You clearly don't understand the difference between a Tupdog deck and a weenie potence deck, so seriously, just stop commenting. They're so far apart in what they can achieve and how they work that you might as well compare Tupdogs to a lawfirm deck.

As an aside, your "advice" to include more combat defense when dealing with Tupdogs is so laughable that I have to start wondering if you have EVER played against a proper one...
Last edit: 09 Apr 2012 12:59 by Izaak.

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09 Apr 2012 13:05 #27530 by Klaital
Why yes I have, last time tupdog deck was my predator when I was playing !Nos toolbox, I just stealth rushed his !Tremere to torpor and rest of the game he was forced to go on full defense against his predator.

Main difference between tupdog and weenie potence is that tupdogs generally use aggravated damage, if you are using prevent it doesn't make much difference (unless your prevent is like soak or something), if you aren't using prevent the difference is just that you go into torpor with blood instead of empty.

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09 Apr 2012 15:41 - 09 Apr 2012 15:43 #27532 by Izaak
No.

The main difference between Tupdog and weenie Potence is that weenie potence has to deal with his vampires dying and decrypting up new ones. It's perfectyly possible to weather the storm at the beginning until the weenie potence player runs out of steam and has to go backwards. Tupdog decks, meanwhile, get on-demand rushes at the cost of 1 pool (or more realistically, a tapped dreams or a powerbase montreal that nobody will even attempt to block when you try and take it back). Tupdogs are 100% expendable and never a liability. Unlike torped potence weenies.

The next difference is that weenie potence has to rely on his weenie potence guys bleeding for 1 to oust his prey, while the Tupdog deck can Raw Recruit himself new vampires and has !Tremere that come with dominate on the table anyway.

The next difference is that weenie potence has to rely on backrushing to stay alive, while Tupdogs can just use the !Tremere to bounce bleeds.

Furthermore, weenie potence is just that - weenie potence. It does Signpost-Grapple-Smack-Disarm and that's it. And since you can only play Disram on vampire, the after the inevitable torp safe, you're going to need to hit for tons. Which you cannot, because you're a 2-cap with inferior potence and 1 blood. It get royally screwed by maneuvers, can't really deal with prevent because they dion't have prevent themselves and are, ya know, weenies. Tupdog on the other hand, has basically answer to everything and expendable to boot. Their combat cards are free, can do everything they need and to add insult to injury they ALSO get a rush at stealth and an untap.

These decks are not even *remotely* similar unless you're claiming that "all combat decks are the same" in which case I suppose we can stop discussing.

Why yes I have, last time tupdog deck was my predator when I was playing !Nos toolbox, I just stealth rushed his !Tremere to torpor and rest of the game he was forced to go on full defense against his predator.


Yes, the deck has weaknesses. A lot of them, actually. The vast majority of them is unlikely to come up unless you meta specifically against it. And yes, if you happen to play something that exploits said weakness it can't do anything. Which is what I said earlier, which is why it's a retarded deck, spawned by a retarded crypt card that never saw proper playtesting.
Last edit: 09 Apr 2012 15:43 by Izaak.

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09 Apr 2012 16:21 - 09 Apr 2012 16:22 #27533 by Surreal
Main reason I don't like Reversal of Fortune deck is because it messes basics of the game too much. I feel it is same reason why seat switchers was banned (of course there were too powerful, but there never will be seat switcher again even with more balanced cards). Switching seats messes about basics of predator/prey. Reversal of Fortunes messes basics of turn order. Some major change of game effects from cards are ok but it shouldn't let other players suffer too much. Madness Network is one of the best designed cards IMO and totally ok because it lets other players play also. I am not fan of turbo decks either. I don't feel I am playing Vtes anymore when I see them.

Tupdog is a bit different topic. Important question when designing cards is if the card is fun at all to play against. Tupdog is maybe biggest mistake about this because it doesn't even allow other player to play his deck (some could argue Pentex makes same also, but I don't agree). I think tupdog deck shows what games might turn out to be more if combat is given more ousting power. I agree with Izaak that Tupdog is failed design. Crypt cards should be permanents you have to protect and not something you can just get massive amounts and throw to fire like Tupdogs.
Last edit: 09 Apr 2012 16:22 by Surreal.

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09 Apr 2012 16:23 #27534 by Joscha
FYI there was a discussion about Tupdog here and a poll [url=http://http://vekn.net/index.php/forum/40-polling-forum/16187-poll-tupdog]here[/url]. Maybe some arguments are interesting.

Baron of Frankfurt

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09 Apr 2012 16:41 #27536 by Joscha
I was at a table with a Reversal of Fortune-deck once played by Pascal at the EC on Mallorca. His predator, my prey was a Tupdog-deck. Both decks were annoying for sure. Gladly the players were nice (my pred was David Tatu, always a pleasure to play with) so the decks didn't matter that much, we had fun talking. But of course that's no parameter to measure the quality of the game. Pascals engine sputtered now and then, enough to make him lose the table. We others didn't saw much gaming time and the table timed with my prey gaining 1,5 VPs. It still was an interesting game as I never saw a RoF-deck before. Most likely I'd have been bored if it turned up more often before.

To cut a long story short: I'm very careful with calls for banning because I think that is an easy and too common reflex when a card seems to be strong. I have the impression people rather call for a ban of a card instead to think how to counter its threat gamewise.
But I'm not sure on this card, because that decktype lowers the game-experience of too many other players. Watching just one guy playing is seldom fun (it was for me at Mallorca as I didn't see the deck work before).
OTOH that deck is really not that succesful. Is it played so often that we have to care?

Baron of Frankfurt
The following user(s) said Thank You: david.tatu

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