Balancing Ashur Tablets

What I am saying is that managing a finite resource (a library of cards) is a core component of the game. In as much as managing the finite resource of 30 pool is a core component of the game. VTES is also a game about making sure you're the last car to run out of petrol rather than the first car over the line. You only have to ensure you are still going when every other player is not... so resource advantages are big. This is the complaint against Giant's Blood (creating large swing in resources) and Pentex (effectively removing large amounts of resource).

By 'breaks that aspect of the game' I mean that "Recursion of cards from the ash heap breaks the limitation of a finite resource either by increasing the resource beyond game limits OR by creating a potentially infinite resource".

Ashur Tablets does not create an infinite resource, but it does create a potentially 11% to 20% increase in library size for a cost of 3 cards. This is not possible with any other major card recursion method, except WMO and that is hardly destroying tournaments.

Necromancy ash-heap recycle has most commonly been "trade 1 card to get back 2 cards" which increases the library by an effective 1 card per action. Hardly game breaking, and probably comparable with WMO.

Reinforcements is hardly seen and requires at least 1 card to bring back 4 cards with an effective net library increase of 3 cards per action, but less if you play other cards to ensure the action success.

If I heard Ben Peal was cooking up a card that said "Every turn, discard 1 card from your hand to move 3 cards from your ashheap to your library" I'd be very very strongly advocating for that card to never see the light of day.



The reasons why WMO is hardly tearing up the tournament scene and breaking recursion are:
1) It's a !Brujah card. They have hardly been tearing up the tournament scene at any point, even when you started seeing a lot more of them with Hektor, the other guy and the G5 Brujah Justicar making appearances.

2) It's one card per turn after you get the card. So, assuming it is the average 14 turns or less game AND you draw it in your first two turns AND you can influence out a !Brujah in the first Influence phase then you get equivalent card recursion to Ashur Tablets. Other than that very limited chance and high opportunity cost, WMO is strictly worse than 3x Ashur Tablets.

Due to the way this discussion is turning, Im unsure if we can use math in a vaccuum and % of deck recurred.

If we both use tablets, and you play girls mmpa and I play g2 gargoyle combat, WHAT i get back and HOW it got into the ash heap is important to what happens with tablets.

I rushed all game, somehow ousted first prey and my fame went away with him. I have lotw of red cards in my ash heap, along with lets say a tension that was burned via burn clause, the fame i mentioned, a haven uncovered that burned, and a few force of wills.
Girls mmpa has a ton of cards such as golconda that they played once after villeining nana, he villein from said nana, a di theyve anthelios recurred all game, a,pentex that has been similarly returning, and several similar cards that have been liquidated imto the deck. Also some stuff they paid to bounce with aksynia.

The girls deck is built to abuse tablets, liquidation, andthelios, nana, aksynia, cybele, villein, golconda, and of coirse through recurring one copy of each if needed imdefinately, DI and pentex. Its several goodxparts and a few that suck outside of combos like this, all working as strong parts of a broken whole.

Returning to g2 gargoyles, they suck anyway. They use strong cards like tablets to recur good cards like fame and as the crow and taste along with cut rate junk like swoop (a GOOD flight red cardeven) crawling chamber, stone strength, etc. They work as out math in a vaccum, using 4 card slots and 3 mpas to recur 13 of 90 cards, netting 9 really, but its with pool and late game when you need fame, tastes, grapples, diaarms, etc to actually win (well, its still gargoyles, so just TRYING to win is impressive). Tactically advantageous? Yes, thats why its worth the card slots and mpas. You use 3-4 slots that balance returning what you really need times 13 instead of what you may neex times 3-4. Also you are playing delayed ascendance twice instead of master cards you may not have drawn anyway,,since its probably master lite.

Mmpa girls is better at abusing the parts, that why its broken outside of ashur tablets.

Imbued recurring conviction is as big a time sink risk as tablet shuffling, and they have better built in recursion only givi g middle of the road power level cards, when compared to tablets or wmo or sudario or necro cards that suck, or even sargon.

Theres mathematically little problem with some uses, cost more than balances. Its what else happens when its a problem that made it a problem.

Agaim, AAA decks came in with tablets after cel guns anson, and still nobody really botched hard until girlz mmpa stuff waz everywhere.

In summary, having the tools,to expoit the thing is the problem, and always was. You mitigate cost because you have many MPAS and your tablets arent taking up slots/useless sometimes, since its also a bounce to Aksynia.

You liquidate for pool, and you really just lose to the DNR clause, since it lets you spend an MPA (which since you have 3-4 is really like spending a transfer in many ways) and a hand size to gain pool and look at parts of yoir deck to pick up with anthelios or return to deck with tablets. Villein someone, then golconda. Get back villein and golconda if you want via anthelios and or tablets. Pentex and DI are great and you use them alot without wasting slots.

Oh, amd all this shit is also a deflection once a turn. You build your crypt to use yoir deck, which is all masters basically. They give MPAS and one uses masters to bounce. Then the deck uses your billion mpas to gain pool and not die. And its adapting as you play since you tablets stuff back.

So, again, its what you do with what happens, and using costs and drawbacks to help instead of hurt, that makes aproblem occur here.

Revrev,
We can easily set limits based on simple assumptions:

1) VTES games are, on average, 14 turns in length. So as a safe guess, assuming a fairly small standard deviation, >75% of all games finish between turns 12 and 16. (Including time-limited games).

2) The upper limit of a library is 90 cards, the lower limit is 60.

@Ankha: Your argument that 70 + 3x Ashurs = 90 cards is just highlighting that you can extend a 70card deck to 90 cards. If you choose at the deckbuilding stage to bring in a libaray with 70 cards, that is the resource you have chosen. Ashur Tablets allows you to extend that resource to 90 cards. You have, in effect, increased your own library by 20 cards (which would be a 28% increase on deck size).

It is not restricted to decks getting to greater than 90 cards. That is not the resource limit. The resource limit is the number of cards you choose to bring with you into the game. If you bring 60 cards and can basically pad it out to 70 cards by Ashur Tablets, then you're increasing your resources by around 16%.



For the record, I am actually very very strongly against Voter Captivation even though it has been in the game for a long time purely because it can add a large amount of resource into the game without deviating away from ousting players. Even a relatively modest Voter Captivation of around 4 to 6 counters, this is easily a 14-20% increase in counters in the game.

For a similar effect imagine a card which said "Only usable after a successful bleed. Put 12 cards into your library from your ashheap." I doubt that would see printing.

On the implied argument of "Increasing pool isn't a problem so why is increasing the library a problem?"... How many actions can remove 10% of your starting library? Basically none. Slaughterhouse can do it, but again, to do that requires at least 6 turns of play (if you can get a HoS out in Turn 1).

You could have, but you did not. It was a choice you made to have a less-than-90 card deck. People tend to do it to probability and improve consistency of card flow in the deck.

You are arguing from a point of 'what is permitted by the rules' and not 'the resources you chose to bring'.

Ankha, would you want there to be a Necromancy card that said "Remove this card from the game. Choose four cards from you ashheap and put them into your library."? If not, why not? Darby's argument and my argument is: the ashheap exists mostly to collect 'used resources'.



I actually have a greater problem with VC than Con Boon and Autarkis. VC gives you additional rewards beyond ousting your prey. Again, I don't think playtesters or the DT would create an action modifier which said "When you bleed your prey, gain 2 pool and 2 blood on this minion." If that card wouldn't see play now, then maybe we should look at VC. Con Boon and Autarkis do potentially create large amounts of resource, Autarkis particularly, but:
- Autarkis tends not to be played because there is low control over where resources are gained and how much resource is gained. It is a greater culprit than Con Boon but is less of a resource generator than Voter Cap.

- Con Boon tends to be roughly equal to a Govern at Dominate or Tend the Flock unless the deck is specifically intended to exploit it. Most people choose other methods.

Summon Soul is:
1 action + 1 card (opportunity cost included) to get 2 cards in your library. Or a net result of 1 unblocked action creates +1 library card.

Ashur Tablets is:
3 MPA + 4 cards* to get 12 cards in your library + 1 card in hand + 3 pool.
Net Result: 3 MPAs gets you +9 cards and +3 pool.

* 4 cards = 3x Ashur Tablet + 1 card that should be discarded as part of resolving the Ashur Tablets.


To make Summon Soul be a close equivalent to Ashur Tablets it needs to read:
Summon Soul
Action
Necromancy
+1 stealth action.
[nec] ((who cares some stuff, lets make it gain 2 blood))
[NEC] Remove this card from the game to gain 1 pool and move four cards from your ash heap to your library.

Do you think this action is still balanced??


My problem with VC giving extra rewards for ousting your prey has nothing to do with morals. Which other action modifier gives you blood and pool for taking actions to oust your prey? The only one that immediately springs to mind is Edge of the World which has a huge opportunity cost on it to start with. Voter Cap gives you back blood and pool, it can easily put into the game a lot more pool than ConBoon can.

Yes, I've seen the African Clown Car, I've also seen Palla Grande Weenies (had a reasonable one using Undue Influence to really put it into gear)... but your two edge cases don't diminish the argument against Voter Cap, if anything they just reinforce why allowing cards to add large volumes of resource into the game are destabilising. One of my locals is running a Clown Car Commands Undeath deck... equally destabilising.

ConBoon will often add around 6 counters to the game (excluding VC) most people rarely have more than 6 minions of the same clan, and even Clown Cars generally tend not to have 8+. Autarkis Persecution, assuming the person playing it is going for a weenie trick, will add 6-8 for the person playing it and around 3-5 for everyone else. Voter Cap regularly puts in a number of extra counters equivalent to Con Boon, and can do so while also damaging your prey. It is not just the number of counters that is problematic but HOW they enter play. If you wouldn't hand someone 6+ blood and 2 pool for a successful bleed for 3, why is it legitimate to do it for a vote action?

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Voter Cap gives you back blood and pool, it can easily put into the game a lot more pool than ConBoon can.

No, it doesn't and it can't. The most pool Voter Cap can put into the game is 2. This is a fixed number. The number of blood counters from Voter Cap is also capped by the capacity of the vampire playing it. Furthermore, Voter Captivation requires Presence, superior Presence to gain any pool benefit.

Consanguineous Boon doesn't have a maximum limit to the pool that can be gained, it doesn't require a discipline and can therefore be played by vampires with 1-capacity, and it doesn't require another card (i.e. one that provides a political action) in order for it to be played.

Jeff wrote:

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Voter Cap gives you back blood and pool, it can easily put into the game a lot more pool than ConBoon can.

No, it doesn't and it can't. The most pool Voter Cap can put into the game is 2. This is a fixed number. The number of blood counters from Voter Cap is also capped by the capacity of the vampire playing it. Furthermore, Voter Captivation requires Presence, superior Presence to gain any pool benefit.

Consanguineous Boon doesn't have a maximum limit to the pool that can be gained, it doesn't require a discipline and can therefore be played by vampires with 1-capacity, and it doesn't require another card (i.e. one that provides a political action) in order for it to be played.

I dont think any of these are REALLY a problem like a card that says "Gain 2 pool and fill this vampire to maximum capacity. Only playable during a referendum and with cards you were already going to play."

Which is in many cases (Id guess 65-78% of the time) what happens with voter cap. You already were passing a vote with a 10 cap justicar, you have 2-3 princes as well, you called a KRC and had cap and awe in hand. You AWE for 6, gain 12, and have 20 votes. Cards like Awe make reactionary voting a bad idea, since you either have the standing votes to stop the referedum, or they have an Awe and you play DT. Or, if youre crafty, let them vote and awe, and then Touch of Clarity the cap

Anyway, more on topic, Con Boon and AP WITH Awe and Vcap are similar to the girls mmpa issue, just not broken. Vote, gain pool, fill a vamp, then minion tap. Then, vote, gain pool, fill a vamp, minion tap, etc. System is straightforward, gains crazy pool. But, you can get: blocked. Dtd. DId. Touch of claritied. Tap suddened. Outvoted. Rushed. Or many other things, so theres balance. If no mmpa decks played ashurs, itd be a fair race to get to 3. Its a deck doing so many tbings with every drawback actually a gain thats a problem.

Voter cap is a free card that works PERFECT with any deck that can vote. If you vote, you pump with presence and then cap. You need a vamp with presence, and brown cards, titles optional. Presence and votes are a thing. They monopolize it, mostly because If YOU vote with Ingrid, Niklaus V, and Basilica, the most you get is 1 vote pump from inferior animal magnatism and then a sucessdul vote that MIGHT happen, get outvoted, or DTd.
Votes and presence, you for sure will play a vote amd either get blocked, DTd, or pass a vote and gain pool if you have the cards in your hand. No other discipline will come close, since they cany gain pool AND pass votes while filling a vamp too.

Ive built a voting Grotesque deck. Zane, Rusticus, Malachai, and like 13 Grotesque. Conboon, second trads, tons of storage annex. But I HAD to get out a vamp and become prince IMMIDIATELY because a freaking primogen was enough to make the whole thing never work.

Presence has no such issues. Arika, Lucinde, Victorine, and Anne all sitting to yoir left? Its only 11 votes. Ayo with no other vamps out can call a vote, play AWE, BO, and VC to get 21, pass by 10, gain 2 pool and refil. Its good. Renewed vigor is a Bloodline discipline card and costs a blood.

Very good.

Anyway, why fan THAT good of a card not be as problematic as Girls MMPA? Its still not as strong a machine.