file Balancing Ashur Tablets

21 Jul 2014 04:09 #63797 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets

It is not restricted to decks getting to greater than 90 cards. That is not the resource limit. The resource limit is the number of cards you choose to bring with you into the game. If you bring 60 cards and can basically pad it out to 70 cards by Ashur Tablets, then you're increasing your resources by around 16%.

But you could have built your deck in 90 cards right from the beginning, right? So what's the problem?

For the record, I am actually very very strongly against Voter Captivation even though it has been in the game for a long time purely because it can add a large amount of resource into the game without deviating away from ousting players.

I wasn't thinking of Voter Captivation, but of Consanguineous Boon and Autarkis Persecution that bring more pool in play than Voter Captivation. But I'm sure you're also strongly against those cards (unless you're against Voter Captivation for other reasons, in which case your point is moot).

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21 Jul 2014 19:52 #63820 by Juggernaut1981
You could have, but you did not. It was a choice you made to have a less-than-90 card deck. People tend to do it to probability and improve consistency of card flow in the deck.

You are arguing from a point of 'what is permitted by the rules' and not 'the resources you chose to bring'.

Ankha, would you want there to be a Necromancy card that said "Remove this card from the game. Choose four cards from you ashheap and put them into your library."? If not, why not? Darby's argument and my argument is: the ashheap exists mostly to collect 'used resources'.



I actually have a greater problem with VC than Con Boon and Autarkis. VC gives you additional rewards beyond ousting your prey. Again, I don't think playtesters or the DT would create an action modifier which said "When you bleed your prey, gain 2 pool and 2 blood on this minion." If that card wouldn't see play now, then maybe we should look at VC. Con Boon and Autarkis do potentially create large amounts of resource, Autarkis particularly, but:
- Autarkis tends not to be played because there is low control over where resources are gained and how much resource is gained. It is a greater culprit than Con Boon but is less of a resource generator than Voter Cap.

- Con Boon tends to be roughly equal to a Govern at Dominate or Tend the Flock unless the deck is specifically intended to exploit it. Most people choose other methods.

:bruj::CEL::POT::PRE::tha: Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

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22 Jul 2014 04:26 #63827 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets

Ankha, would you want there to be a Necromancy card that said "Remove this card from the game. Choose four cards from you ashheap and put them into your library."? If not, why not? Darby's argument and my argument is: the ashheap exists mostly to collect 'used resources'.

You mean
Name: Summon Soul
[FN:C2/PG2]
Cardtype: Action
Discipline: Necromancy
+1 stealth action.
[nec] This vampire gains 2 blood.
[NEC] Remove this card from the game and move up to 2 cards from your ash heap to your library. Shuffle your library afterward.

Utterly broken, should be banned. I can't count the number of times I've seen it played right before the prey was ousted. ;)

I actually have a greater problem with VC than Con Boon and Autarkis. VC gives you additional rewards beyond ousting your prey.

Well, this is more a moral issue than a game issue. There is a lot more pool generated with ConBoon or Autarkis than Voter Cap (considering that both are played in the adequate deck). You've never played against a Palla Embrace or a Ravnos Carnival Eldest are Kholo?

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22 Jul 2014 08:36 #63833 by Juggernaut1981
Summon Soul is:
1 action + 1 card (opportunity cost included) to get 2 cards in your library. Or a net result of 1 unblocked action creates +1 library card.

Ashur Tablets is:
3 MPA + 4 cards* to get 12 cards in your library + 1 card in hand + 3 pool.
Net Result: 3 MPAs gets you +9 cards and +3 pool.

* 4 cards = 3x Ashur Tablet + 1 card that should be discarded as part of resolving the Ashur Tablets.


To make Summon Soul be a close equivalent to Ashur Tablets it needs to read:
Summon Soul
Action
Necromancy
+1 stealth action.
[nec] ((who cares some stuff, lets make it gain 2 blood))
[NEC] Remove this card from the game to gain 1 pool and move four cards from your ash heap to your library.

Do you think this action is still balanced??


My problem with VC giving extra rewards for ousting your prey has nothing to do with morals. Which other action modifier gives you blood and pool for taking actions to oust your prey? The only one that immediately springs to mind is Edge of the World which has a huge opportunity cost on it to start with. Voter Cap gives you back blood and pool, it can easily put into the game a lot more pool than ConBoon can.

Yes, I've seen the African Clown Car, I've also seen Palla Grande Weenies (had a reasonable one using Undue Influence to really put it into gear)... but your two edge cases don't diminish the argument against Voter Cap, if anything they just reinforce why allowing cards to add large volumes of resource into the game are destabilising. One of my locals is running a Clown Car Commands Undeath deck... equally destabilising.

ConBoon will often add around 6 counters to the game (excluding VC) most people rarely have more than 6 minions of the same clan, and even Clown Cars generally tend not to have 8+. Autarkis Persecution, assuming the person playing it is going for a weenie trick, will add 6-8 for the person playing it and around 3-5 for everyone else. Voter Cap regularly puts in a number of extra counters equivalent to Con Boon, and can do so while also damaging your prey. It is not just the number of counters that is problematic but HOW they enter play. If you wouldn't hand someone 6+ blood and 2 pool for a successful bleed for 3, why is it legitimate to do it for a vote action?

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22 Jul 2014 14:15 #63847 by Jeff Kuta

Voter Cap gives you back blood and pool, it can easily put into the game a lot more pool than ConBoon can.


No, it doesn't and it can't. The most pool Voter Cap can put into the game is 2. This is a fixed number. The number of blood counters from Voter Cap is also capped by the capacity of the vampire playing it. Furthermore, Voter Captivation requires Presence, superior Presence to gain any pool benefit.

Consanguineous Boon doesn't have a maximum limit to the pool that can be gained, it doesn't require a discipline and can therefore be played by vampires with 1-capacity, and it doesn't require another card (i.e. one that provides a political action) in order for it to be played.

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22 Jul 2014 17:58 #63888 by ReverendRevolver

Voter Cap gives you back blood and pool, it can easily put into the game a lot more pool than ConBoon can.


No, it doesn't and it can't. The most pool Voter Cap can put into the game is 2. This is a fixed number. The number of blood counters from Voter Cap is also capped by the capacity of the vampire playing it. Furthermore, Voter Captivation requires Presence, superior Presence to gain any pool benefit.

Consanguineous Boon doesn't have a maximum limit to the pool that can be gained, it doesn't require a discipline and can therefore be played by vampires with 1-capacity, and it doesn't require another card (i.e. one that provides a political action) in order for it to be played.


I dont think any of these are REALLY a problem like a card that says "Gain 2 pool and fill this vampire to maximum capacity. Only playable during a referendum and with cards you were already going to play."

Which is in many cases (Id guess 65-78% of the time) what happens with voter cap. You already were passing a vote with a 10 cap justicar, you have 2-3 princes as well, you called a KRC and had cap and awe in hand. You AWE for 6, gain 12, and have 20 votes. Cards like Awe make reactionary voting a bad idea, since you either have the standing votes to stop the referedum, or they have an Awe and you play DT. Or, if youre crafty, let them vote and awe, and then Touch of Clarity the cap ;)

Anyway, more on topic, Con Boon and AP WITH Awe and Vcap are similar to the girls mmpa issue, just not broken. Vote, gain pool, fill a vamp, then minion tap. Then, vote, gain pool, fill a vamp, minion tap, etc. System is straightforward, gains crazy pool. But, you can get: blocked. Dtd. DId. Touch of claritied. Tap suddened. Outvoted. Rushed. Or many other things, so theres balance. If no mmpa decks played ashurs, itd be a fair race to get to 3. Its a deck doing so many tbings with every drawback actually a gain thats a problem.

Voter cap is a free card that works PERFECT with any deck that can vote. If you vote, you pump with presence and then cap. You need a vamp with presence, and brown cards, titles optional. Presence and votes are a thing. They monopolize it, mostly because If YOU vote with Ingrid, Niklaus V, and Basilica, the most you get is 1 vote pump from inferior animal magnatism and then a sucessdul vote that MIGHT happen, get outvoted, or DTd.
Votes and presence, you for sure will play a vote amd either get blocked, DTd, or pass a vote and gain pool if you have the cards in your hand. No other discipline will come close, since they cany gain pool AND pass votes while filling a vamp too.

Ive built a voting Grotesque deck. Zane, Rusticus, Malachai, and like 13 Grotesque. Conboon, second trads, tons of storage annex. But I HAD to get out a vamp and become prince IMMIDIATELY because a freaking primogen was enough to make the whole thing never work.

Presence has no such issues. Arika, Lucinde, Victorine, and Anne all sitting to yoir left? Its only 11 votes. Ayo with no other vamps out can call a vote, play AWE, BO, and VC to get 21, pass by 10, gain 2 pool and refil. Its good. Renewed vigor is a Bloodline discipline card and costs a blood.

Very good.

Anyway, why fan THAT good of a card not be as problematic as Girls MMPA? Its still not as strong a machine.

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