file Balancing Ashur Tablets

19 Jul 2014 17:31 #63763 by derjudge
This thread is so boring that it looks like a master phase of someone playing ashur tablets.
The following user(s) said Thank You: D-dennis, ReverendRevolver

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20 Jul 2014 08:49 - 20 Jul 2014 08:49 #63767 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets

<snip all the redundant explanation about how Ashur Tablets work and how Darby's "perfect knowledge" must be interpreted>
Another core component of VTES is resource depletion. You usually deplete your library into your ashheap with few ways to bring it back. Ashur Tablets breaks that aspect of the game quite thoroughly.


What do you mean by "aspect of the game": resource depletion, or recursion?

If you mean recursion, then all the cards that perform recursion should be banned since they break that so-important "aspect of the game".

If you mean resource depletion, you're wrong, because you'll deplete your deck anyway.

Depleting a 90-cards deck without Ashur Tablets will take as much time as depleting a 70-cards deck with 6 Ashur Tablets (70 + 2*13 - 6 = 90). Tell me how it breaks that "aspect of the game".

Even if WMO is slower, it breaks that "aspect of the game" because you could theorically play with an endless deck. But as you said, "If WMO's constant recursion was as powerful as claimed, it seems depressingly absent from TWDA." so in fact breaking that "aspect of the game" isn't as bad as you pretend.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 20 Jul 2014 08:49 by Ankha.

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20 Jul 2014 09:08 #63768 by Juggernaut1981
What I am saying is that managing a finite resource (a library of cards) is a core component of the game. In as much as managing the finite resource of 30 pool is a core component of the game. VTES is also a game about making sure you're the last car to run out of petrol rather than the first car over the line. You only have to ensure you are still going when every other player is not... so resource advantages are big. This is the complaint against Giant's Blood (creating large swing in resources) and Pentex (effectively removing large amounts of resource).

By 'breaks that aspect of the game' I mean that "Recursion of cards from the ash heap breaks the limitation of a finite resource either by increasing the resource beyond game limits OR by creating a potentially infinite resource".

Ashur Tablets does not create an infinite resource, but it does create a potentially 11% to 20% increase in library size for a cost of 3 cards. This is not possible with any other major card recursion method, except WMO and that is hardly destroying tournaments.

Necromancy ash-heap recycle has most commonly been "trade 1 card to get back 2 cards" which increases the library by an effective 1 card per action. Hardly game breaking, and probably comparable with WMO.

Reinforcements is hardly seen and requires at least 1 card to bring back 4 cards with an effective net library increase of 3 cards per action, but less if you play other cards to ensure the action success.

If I heard Ben Peal was cooking up a card that said "Every turn, discard 1 card from your hand to move 3 cards from your ashheap to your library" I'd be very very strongly advocating for that card to never see the light of day.



The reasons why WMO is hardly tearing up the tournament scene and breaking recursion are:
1) It's a !Brujah card. They have hardly been tearing up the tournament scene at any point, even when you started seeing a lot more of them with Hektor, the other guy and the G5 Brujah Justicar making appearances.

2) It's one card per turn after you get the card. So, assuming it is the average 14 turns or less game AND you draw it in your first two turns AND you can influence out a !Brujah in the first Influence phase then you get equivalent card recursion to Ashur Tablets. Other than that very limited chance and high opportunity cost, WMO is strictly worse than 3x Ashur Tablets.

:bruj::CEL::POT::PRE::tha: Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

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20 Jul 2014 10:26 #63770 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets

What I am saying is that managing a finite resource (a library of cards) is a core component of the game. In as much as managing the finite resource of 30 pool is a core component of the game. VTES is also a game about making sure you're the last car to run out of petrol rather than the first car over the line. You only have to ensure you are still going when every other player is not... so resource advantages are big. This is the complaint against Giant's Blood (creating large swing in resources) and Pentex (effectively removing large amounts of resource).

By 'breaks that aspect of the game' I mean that "Recursion of cards from the ash heap breaks the limitation of a finite resource either by increasing the resource beyond game limits OR by creating a potentially infinite resource".

Ashur Tablets does not create an infinite resource, but it does create a potentially 11% to 20% increase in library size for a cost of 3 cards.

The increase in library size is only true if D + 10 * A/3 > 90, where D is the deck size and A the number of Ashur Tablets.

For instance, a 70-cards deck with 6 Ashur Tablets allows you to "consume" 90 cards, just like a regular 90-cards deck.

Drawback: it uses MPAs, can be slightly unreliable (Sudden/Wash or someone else playing Ashur) and you must have consumed the cards first to get them back. Advantage: you don't put back cards you won't really need.

So the "problem" is restricted to decks that are effectively playing (if the deck is depleted, it's rarely the case) more than 90 cards through the recursion.
Yet, the tendency has shifted from 'always 90 cards' to slimer decks, mainly because of the Swiss influence. It may be interesting to ask people playing 90-cards deck with Ashur Tablets how many cards they really use.

Let's say they do use more than 90 cards. Is it a problem? The only decks I've seen so far with 90 cards and Tablets are combat decks. Is it bad if combat decks can be improved that way?

This is not possible with any other major card recursion method,

But is it a problem?

I mean, starting with 30 pool don't stop people from having more pool (in fact, it's much more easier to gain massive amout of pool rather than retrieving that amount of cards). Is it worse to gain 20 pool or get back 20 cards (figures at just examples)?

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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20 Jul 2014 14:49 - 20 Jul 2014 15:02 #63776 by ReverendRevolver
Due to the way this discussion is turning, Im unsure if we can use math in a vaccuum and % of deck recurred.

If we both use tablets, and you play girls mmpa and I play g2 gargoyle combat, WHAT i get back and HOW it got into the ash heap is important to what happens with tablets.

I rushed all game, somehow ousted first prey and my fame went away with him. I have lotw of red cards in my ash heap, along with lets say a tension that was burned via burn clause, the fame i mentioned, a haven uncovered that burned, and a few force of wills.
Girls mmpa has a ton of cards such as golconda that they played once after villeining nana, he villein from said nana, a di theyve anthelios recurred all game, a,pentex that has been similarly returning, and several similar cards that have been liquidated imto the deck. Also some stuff they paid to bounce with aksynia.

The girls deck is built to abuse tablets, liquidation, andthelios, nana, aksynia, cybele, villein, golconda, and of coirse through recurring one copy of each if needed imdefinately, DI and pentex. Its several goodxparts and a few that suck outside of combos like this, all working as strong parts of a broken whole.

Returning to g2 gargoyles, they suck anyway. They use strong cards like tablets to recur good cards like fame and as the crow and taste along with cut rate junk like swoop (a GOOD flight red cardeven) crawling chamber, stone strength, etc. They work as out math in a vaccum, using 4 card slots and 3 mpas to recur 13 of 90 cards, netting 9 really, but its with pool and late game when you need fame, tastes, grapples, diaarms, etc to actually win (well, its still gargoyles, so just TRYING to win is impressive). Tactically advantageous? Yes, thats why its worth the card slots and mpas. You use 3-4 slots that balance returning what you really need times 13 instead of what you may neex times 3-4. Also you are playing delayed ascendance twice instead of master cards you may not have drawn anyway,,since its probably master lite.

Mmpa girls is better at abusing the parts, that why its broken outside of ashur tablets.

Imbued recurring conviction is as big a time sink risk as tablet shuffling, and they have better built in recursion only givi g middle of the road power level cards, when compared to tablets or wmo or sudario or necro cards that suck, or even sargon.

Theres mathematically little problem with some uses, cost more than balances. Its what else happens when its a problem that made it a problem.

Agaim, AAA decks came in with tablets after cel guns anson, and still nobody really botched hard until girlz mmpa stuff waz everywhere.

In summary, having the tools,to expoit the thing is the problem, and always was. You mitigate cost because you have many MPAS and your tablets arent taking up slots/useless sometimes, since its also a bounce to Aksynia.

You liquidate for pool, and you really just lose to the DNR clause, since it lets you spend an MPA (which since you have 3-4 is really like spending a transfer in many ways) and a hand size to gain pool and look at parts of yoir deck to pick up with anthelios or return to deck with tablets. Villein someone, then golconda. Get back villein and golconda if you want via anthelios and or tablets. Pentex and DI are great and you use them alot without wasting slots.

Oh, amd all this shit is also a deflection once a turn. You build your crypt to use yoir deck, which is all masters basically. They give MPAS and one uses masters to bounce. Then the deck uses your billion mpas to gain pool and not die. And its adapting as you play since you tablets stuff back.

So, again, its what you do with what happens, and using costs and drawbacks to help instead of hurt, that makes aproblem occur here.
Last edit: 20 Jul 2014 15:02 by ReverendRevolver. Reason: Ti

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20 Jul 2014 20:18 #63793 by Juggernaut1981
Revrev,
We can easily set limits based on simple assumptions:

1) VTES games are, on average, 14 turns in length. So as a safe guess, assuming a fairly small standard deviation, >75% of all games finish between turns 12 and 16. (Including time-limited games).

2) The upper limit of a library is 90 cards, the lower limit is 60.

@Ankha: Your argument that 70 + 3x Ashurs = 90 cards is just highlighting that you can extend a 70card deck to 90 cards. If you choose at the deckbuilding stage to bring in a libaray with 70 cards, that is the resource you have chosen. Ashur Tablets allows you to extend that resource to 90 cards. You have, in effect, increased your own library by 20 cards (which would be a 28% increase on deck size).

It is not restricted to decks getting to greater than 90 cards. That is not the resource limit. The resource limit is the number of cards you choose to bring with you into the game. If you bring 60 cards and can basically pad it out to 70 cards by Ashur Tablets, then you're increasing your resources by around 16%.



For the record, I am actually very very strongly against Voter Captivation even though it has been in the game for a long time purely because it can add a large amount of resource into the game without deviating away from ousting players. Even a relatively modest Voter Captivation of around 4 to 6 counters, this is easily a 14-20% increase in counters in the game.

For a similar effect imagine a card which said "Only usable after a successful bleed. Put 12 cards into your library from your ashheap." I doubt that would see printing.

On the implied argument of "Increasing pool isn't a problem so why is increasing the library a problem?"... How many actions can remove 10% of your starting library? Basically none. Slaughterhouse can do it, but again, to do that requires at least 6 turns of play (if you can get a HoS out in Turn 1).

:bruj::CEL::POT::PRE::tha: Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

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