Ban of Conditioning

Personally, I find it hard to point the finger at one specific card - Govern as the strongest bleed action in the game, Deflection as some of the strongest defence in the game, and Conditioning as a tip-top bleed modifier (though Threats has its uses too, for blood management). Most of the issues I have with Dominate are that it has extremely good synergy in one discipline - the three of those, plus also options like Seduction and Bonding to get bleeds through.(*) Dementation is also a very good bleeding discipline - in a slightly different way, with Kindred Spirits - but doesn't have all that in one, and generally has to branch out into Auspex for bounce, if it wants it.

My preference would be for tech that helped out weaker strategies and cramped Dominate a bit. Not crushing it, not killing it, but hampering it, giving it more to think about, more decisions to make, more compromises to consider.


(*) Plus the power of a well-timed Mind Rape, though obviously that requires bigger vampires, generally speaking.

I'd note that what makes bounce more powerful is better bleed. Conditioning and Govern both make Deflection better than if they didn't exist.

Put me in the camp of banning Conditioning or, if it's a more friendly way to put it, retiring it. Govern, too. I have no idea why people have a problem with Deflection, which makes the game playable, but, whatever.

Also, I'd retire another 100 or more cards, perhaps. Bunch of masters along with events and some equipment and one or more allies and ...

Having a manageable card pool is not a bad thing. But, one of the key reasons for controlling card pool size - preventing stagnation - is more why. V:TES has never seen as much change in top level strategies as other CCGs. I also lament how many cards I either used to see played or that are playable that just don't make the cut in decks because they are so vastly inferior when slotting out decks than other plays; this is most noticeable with master cards. It's even to the point where it can be hard to justify playing with WWEF in decks, where it was the single most commonly played card once upon a time.

Ashur wrote:

My main argument for not banning Conditioning: It ends games.

I don't think this argument is valid any more - after banning of Anthelious I see no timing problems outside of overly long discussions.

ICL wrote:

I have no idea why people have a problem with Deflection, which makes the game playable, but, whatever.

From my point of view, I don't have a problem with Deflection itself, just:

a) top-notch offence and top-notch defence in the same discipline is a bit much. Imagine a parallel universe in which V:TES had been designed so that things were split into two different disciplines (say, good +bleed in Presence, good bounce in Dominate), and then a mono-discipline weenie deck could do one or the other, not both, which would seem like a reasonable trade-off. Mix some of both in, play bigger vampires etc.

b) Deflection being so totemic that it draws decks towards playing it, like a siren on the rocks. But that's not an objection to Deflection per se, so much as defensive options in other disciplines/clans/traits being a bit pap.

ICL wrote:

I'd note that what makes bounce more powerful is better bleed.

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