file Creeping Primogen

16 Nov 2020 17:52 #101127 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic Creeping Primogen

Surprise wrote: I am not saying Ani combat package is inefficient , i m just saying that in order to defend the sabotage (which can be removed by any minion ) you need to be able to block constantly like a wall deck do , and we can all agree that one of the best , if not the best wall deck is Goratrix Wall ,especially because he only need a minimal amount of combat cards and is effective even without playing one , which directly makes room for more reaction cards or master .

Animalism combat on the other hand takes an awful amount of cards to be effective in combat each time you get in combat ( like 48 out of 80 cards for example )

Hereby i have the hunch that sabotage deck must find another source of stable combat .

But i could be wrong , at that point i m full of doubt and not certitudes and totally open to debate about this .


Well, if you want to play a deck with 48/80 red cards, you're right ANI is not the best option.

For a wallish deck with ANI combat package, I would go with 7/9 Carrion, 10/12 aid from bats and 4/5 taste of vitae

And of course some good permanent like ivory bow and sniper and/or .44.

When you have a vamp with a raven spy and a sniper rifle unlocked, you need much less wakes.

And I think you overestimate the need to be wallish with this deck :
Creeping sabotage is not Smiling Jack and nobody except your prey (and to some extent your predator) will have any reason to come burn them.

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16 Nov 2020 20:32 #101129 by kschaefer
Replied by kschaefer on topic Creeping Primogen

Timo wrote: Creeping sabotage is not Smiling Jack and nobody except your prey (and to some extent your predator) will have any reason to come burn them.

I think grand-preys with lots of minion might be interested in keeping the number of Creeping Sabotage in check. They will want to balance the pressure of CS with the desire to not be creeped upon.

I also suspect that once you are really going to work on your prey with CS that your grand-prey is going to start taking an interest. Whether that means dealing with you not to put one in play or burning one that is in play, you're going to get some interaction there.

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17 Nov 2020 07:44 - 17 Nov 2020 07:48 #101131 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic Creeping Primogen

kschaefer wrote:

Timo wrote: Creeping sabotage is not Smiling Jack and nobody except your prey (and to some extent your predator) will have any reason to come burn them.

I think grand-preys with lots of minion might be interested in keeping the number of Creeping Sabotage in check. They will want to balance the pressure of CS with the desire to not be creeped upon.

I also suspect that once you are really going to work on your prey with CS that your grand-prey is going to start taking an interest. Whether that means dealing with you not to put one in play or burning one that is in play, you're going to get some interaction there.


OK OK, I was a little overstating my point...

There is always some situations where somebody will want to screw with your plan.

But with creeping sabotage, you will have some terrible difficulties having more than 5 in play (the 6th one cost you 4 bloods if one of them is an army of rats and 5 bloods otherwise) and even 5 is already a lot having cost you 5 successful actions for a total of 6 bloods (10 if no army of rats).

And doing 5 damages a turn to your prey is cool but not so game breaking that the table will want to go against you barring some deal with your prey who is the one being killed (and yes, your grand prey is effectively your prey if you have more CS than your actual prey has pools during your grand prey turn ^^)
Last edit: 17 Nov 2020 07:48 by Timo.

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17 Nov 2020 09:32 - 17 Nov 2020 09:36 #101133 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Creeping Primogen

Ankha wrote: I disagree: Aid from Bats + Carrion Crows is one of the most efficient combat package.


Yep that it is. I just have a different view on things. For me its not enough to just "tickle" the opponent and cost them blood. For me the purpose of combat is to torporize the opponent.

At any rate, you need lot of aid from bats in the deck to reliably have it in your hand when you need it. This runs into the issue of having to have lot of reactions as well, in addition to the ousting cards. A combat wall that needs to have lots of ousting cards (sabotages) as well is, quite frankly, unfeasible. I speak from experience. I would instead go for a more permanent kind of combat package, such as magnums or something. Maybe have vast wealth to dig them up quicker, along with some stealth cards. There are a lot of possibilities and so far Im just spitballing. I need to try making this deck myself.

ps. The Line goes very well with creeping sabotages. Defending it speaks in favor of a more wall-ish approach. Also I just want to remind of you of the issue of printing very strong cards in a limited print run. These cards feel somewhat pay-to-win.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 17 Nov 2020 09:36 by Bloodartist.

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17 Nov 2020 09:48 #101134 by Lönkka
Replied by Lönkka on topic Creeping Primogen
Cards giving table changing/threatening effect might very well prompt removal actions from across the table. Naturally depending on the table situation and and the persuasion skills involved...

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17 Nov 2020 10:53 - 17 Nov 2020 10:58 #101135 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Creeping Primogen

Lönkka wrote: Cards giving table changing/threatening effect might very well prompt removal actions from across the table. Naturally depending on the table situation and and the persuasion skills involved...


Or offer a good opportunity for making deals with other players. Especially when it involves decks that don't usually make deals such a stealth bleed. A stealth minion removing a sabotage across the table for a beneficial deal seems like it could happen.

But at the end of the day, both sabotage and army of rats hit only the immediate prey, and thus are not cards that the entire table wants to remove at least immediately.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 17 Nov 2020 10:58 by Bloodartist.

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