file No More Bounce Cards

19 Oct 2011 11:16 #12284 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: No More Bounce Cards

We do not need any more Deflections in the game. A new bounce card would:
Inhibit creativity in deck design.
Create a hostile metagame for stealth bleed decks, which should be a viable deck type.
Further blur the distinction among the various disciplines.

Totally agree. One of the steps of building a viable deck is to think about how it should defend versus various archetypes. Giving bounce cards for every discipline makes any creativity concerning "How to defend against agressive bleed predator" going to thrash can.

Do you consider Delaying Tactics a poor card, since it gives little creativity to "how to defend against aggresive vote predator"?

If you consider a Daughter of Cacophony deck, I read earlier that they could vote and bloat. In fact, that is the only way for them to survive an aggressive deck. Does it improve creativity? No.
With a bounce-like card, they could go other roads than vote.

Prince of Paris, France
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19 Oct 2011 12:14 #12287 by alek
Replied by alek on topic Re: No More Bounce Cards

If you consider a Daughter of Cacophony deck, I read earlier that they could vote and bloat. In fact, that is the only way for them to survive an aggressive deck. Does it improve creativity? No.
With a bounce-like card, they could go other roads than vote.

First of all why do you think every clan and discipline should be good at defending against aggresive predator?! Some disciplines/ clans/ etc. are better at this other are better with some setup. Some are better for combat other for bleeding and this is very good. With out it we could just play with only one deck/ discipline/ clan.
Daughters of cacophony is a good example of rather specialized clan. It's supposed to be good at voting and weak in defense and it's abolutly all right. Still with some effort (you can call it creativity) you can think of bulding it in more defensive ways. F.e. you can make very aggresive daughters of cacophony deck which kills his prey faster than his predator kills him, you can use shettering crescendo cards to control minions around the table, including your predator, you can build your defense basing on allies f.e. member of the entourage and unmasking, you can bloat using villein + concert tour, you can even add some vampires from other clans (which is how blood lines very designed to be played at the beggining) to improve defnsive capabilities of the deck.

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19 Oct 2011 12:44 - 19 Oct 2011 12:45 #12291 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: No More Bounce Cards

If you consider a Daughter of Cacophony deck, I read earlier that they could vote and bloat. In fact, that is the only way for them to survive an aggressive deck. Does it improve creativity? No.
With a bounce-like card, they could go other roads than vote.

First of all why do you think every clan and discipline should be good at defending against aggresive predator?! Some disciplines/ clans/ etc. are better at this other are better with some setup. Some are better for combat other for bleeding and this is very good. With out it we could just play with only one deck/ discipline/ clan.
Daughters of cacophony is a good example of rather specialized clan. It's supposed to be good at voting and weak in defense and it's abolutly all right. Still with some effort (you can call it creativity) you can think of bulding it in more defensive ways. F.e. you can make very aggresive daughters of cacophony deck which kills his prey faster than his predator kills him, you can use shettering crescendo cards to control minions around the table, including your predator, you can build your defense basing on allies f.e. member of the entourage and unmasking, you can bloat using villein + concert tour, you can even add some vampires from other clans (which is how blood lines very designed to be played at the beggining) to improve defnsive capabilities of the deck.

I'm not saying that every clan "should be good at defending against aggresive predator".
I'm just contesting the argument saying that it would reduce creativity to give them such an option. Creativity would simply switch from "how do I survive" to "what can I do now that the surviving problem is solved".
The real (unanswerable) question is "would the game be better with such a card?"

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 19 Oct 2011 12:45 by Ankha.
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19 Oct 2011 13:04 #12292 by jamesatzephyr

We do not need any more Deflections in the game. A new bounce card would:
  • Inhibit creativity in deck design.
  • Create a hostile metagame for stealth bleed decks, which should be a viable deck type.
  • Further blur the distinction among the various disciplines.


Would you be similarly opposed to a new bleed defence card (of some sort) that was mechanically very different to bounce but was perhaps 90% as powerful as bounce? (Assuming we could measure things that accurately. Which we can't, but for the sake of discussion.) This could, potentially, do all the same things you list above - but it wouldn't be bounce.

It's also difficult to know quite what you mean by 'inhibit creativity in deck design'. At the moment, creativity is inhibited (in some senses) by forcing a lot of deck designs to either:
  • graft on bounce, of some sort (minor Dominate, predominantly)
  • be scrapped (or be significantly awful) because they can't do that
And thus potentially adding a new bounce card could potentially increase creativity in deck design, by allowing that (hypothetical) currently non-viable Samedi deck to be built with 6 copies of a bounce card (also hypothetical) based on Obf+For together.

But if you define creatitivy in a different way - which you might be doing - then the argument would come out differently.

It's also possible that with a 90%-as-effective-as-bounce card, that same Samedi deck might well get built - but would it be significantly more creative?
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19 Oct 2011 14:14 #12296 by Dorrinal
Replied by Dorrinal on topic Re: No More Bounce Cards
James:
A new defense card should provide more interesting decisions in deck design than Deflection. Currently with a "grafted dominate" style of deck you build the deck, then add up to 10 Deflections, and call it good. Can be fun to play, but not to build. So if your hypothetical card passed that test, I'd be in favor of it.

:trem:

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19 Oct 2011 14:53 - 19 Oct 2011 14:56 #12298 by Izaak
Replied by Izaak on topic Re: No More Bounce Cards

Why on earth?
I think that the card is just fine. The capacity/age restriction means that a weenie hordes aren't most likely able to use the card. Which is Good TM.


If the card is "just fine" then why doesn't it EVER see serious play? Why do people STILL end up picking guys that have dominate?

Lost in Translation is trash. It's trash because it's unplayable with 6-7-8 caps. It's trash because vampires that *can* effectively play it have a viable alternative that has dominate or superior auspex.

A bloodcost of 2 is already enough discouragement to spam the card with weenies. Even dominate weenies run out of blood all the time and deflection costs 1.

Create a hostile metagame for stealth bleed decks, which should be a viable deck type.


No, what disciplineless bounce would do is keep bleed a viable deck type, except now bleed decks don't get a free oust every other game because their prey plays without bounce or ridiculous bloat.

Currently with a "grafted dominate" style of deck you build the deck, then add up to 10 Deflections, and call it good.


The sad reality is that if you have a crazy new deck idea it's simply going to fall over and die all the time if you can't graft on dominate. *THAT* is the problem.

First of all why do you think every clan and discipline should be good at defending against aggresive predator?!


Because, among about 1000 other reasons, we want to see more deck variety instead of sitting down next to Girls, Nana, Walls, Stick Men, Weenie Dem and Lawfirm in every tournament game?

I'm just contesting the argument saying that it would reduce creativity to give them such an option. Creativity would simply switch from "how do I survive" to "what can I do now that the surviving problem is solved".


I'm quoting this because it doesn't get more true than this.
Last edit: 19 Oct 2011 14:56 by Izaak.

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