New Crypt Card: Alessandra Cordata

First off, I like the idea of utilizing boons more, but it really feels that such an ability should belong to a Camarilla vampire (since the Camarilla focuses so much on their system of prestation) than a Sabbat one.

wastaz wrote:

In the source material I do believe that there have been a total of 5 regents during the existance of the Sabbat, Melinda Galbraith (!Tor), Sha-Ennu (Tzi) and three Lasombras. In vtes the only regents we have are the ones that are not lasombras, even though the lasombras are clearly lore-wise the true political movers and shakers of the Sabbat.

My best guess is that LSJ thought that Melinda Galbraith (who has a basic Lasombra version and an advanced !Toreador version) was the most obvious selection for a Regent candidate, and her dual-clan affiliation would sort of provide options to both the Lasombra and the !Toreador. I imagine it probably would have been overkill to have both Melinda Galbraith and an additional Lasombra Regent all in Group 4.

I have also felt very disappointed in how the Lasombra is used in Vtes. I've felt that their political angle has been seriously neglected far too long.

I'm a bit puzzled why you think the Lasombra (and Tzimisce) have recently been neglected. In Group 4 the Sabbat clans have:

Brujah Antitribu:
1 Archbishop
2 Prisci
1 Bishop
0 Cardinal or Regent

Gangrel Antitribu:
1 Archbishop
1 Prisci
1 Bishop
0 Cardinal or Regent

Lasombra:
1 Cardinal (merges into Regent)
2 Archbishops
1 Prince
2 Bishops
0 Prisci

Malkavian Antitribu:
1 Cardinal
2 Archbishop
2 Prisci
0 Bishop or Regent

Nosferatu Antitribu:
1 Cardinal
1 Archbishop
1 Prisci
1 Bishop
0 Regent

Toreador Antitribu:
1 Cardinal
1 Archbishop
1 Bishop (merges into Regent)
0 Prisci

Tremere Antitribu:
1 Cardinal
1 Prisci
1 Archbishop
4 Bishop
0 Regent

Tzimisce:
1 Regent
1 Cardinal
1 Archbishop
2 Bishop
0 Prisci

Ventrue Antitribu:
1 Cardinal
1 Archbishop
2 Bishop
0 Prisci or Regent


The Lasombra and Tzimisce easily have the best selection of titles among the Sabbat clans with the !Malks in 3rd place. They also have the most number of titled vampires (aside from the !Tremere, whose numbers are skewed due to 4 Bishops).

Yeah, G4 doesn't have the craziness of G2 (for the Lasombra, 2 Cardinals, 3 Archbishops, 1 super Priscus, a Bishop Merged Archbishop, and another Merged Archbishop, and a Bishop). Tzimisce titled vampires actually seem relatively comparable between G4 and G2 (despite the irrational hatred some people have for G4).

You have an extremely good point. I did not look at the numbers and just went on my gut feelings when I made that comment (that should teach me to not to try to answer to forum-posts while at work ).

While I do think that it's sort of strange that the !Malks are "third best", I really can't do anything but admit that the Lasombra and Tzimisce are pretty well off for titles (though I do want to add "as it should be" here ).

Hm, and now I need to figure out how to build a combined lasombra/tzimisce g4 vote deck...

wastaz wrote:

While I do think that it's sort of strange that the !Malks are "third best", I really can't do anything but admit that the Lasombra and Tzimisce are pretty well off for titles (though I do want to add "as it should be" here ).

I don't know too much for the lasombra-specific card, but Tzimisce are much worse than what static vote may show, because they have neither vote-specific card (like Unexpected Coalition or Ferraille), Presence, nor vote-related special on their vampire (sorry in advance if I have forgotten one vampire, but in the Gr4 they sure have no vote-related special).

That's why !Brujah, for example, are much better at voting than what their static title would show, and why Tzimisce are much more second-hand in term of political action.

Then again, it may be resolved better by a card that require tzimisce more than title.

wastaz wrote:

While I do think that it's sort of strange that the !Malks are "third best", I really can't do anything but admit that the Lasombra and Tzimisce are pretty well off for titles (though I do want to add "as it should be" here ).

Yeah, the !Malk situation is a bit odd, but I'm all for different clans occasionally having different access to new things. (Maybe G6/7 will be Brujah Antitribu political dominance when it comes to titles and G7 will have Pander and Toreador Antitribu Seraphs and no Lasombra or Assamite ones).

I would strongly hazard the guess that the !Malks are so well off because they got many of their titled vampires *before* Third Edition. Only 4 Sabbat clans got a Group 4 titled vampire in Gehenna (!Malks got the only Archbishop). And then they were the only Sabbat clan to get a titled vampire in KMW (Louhi the Cardinal).

So going into Third Edition, the !Malks had two titled vampires (Archbishop and Cardinal) while the !Brujah had one (Priscus), !Ventrue had one (Cardinal), and everyone else had absolutely zero. So LSJ then had to decide whether to give them a standard allotment of titled vampires in Third Edition, or give them significantly less (or worse ones) to compensate their existing advantage. He obviously went with the former. It could have been a lot worse. There was a brief period when Gravitnir was going to be a Cardinal (rather than just a Priscus).

Ohlmann wrote:

I don't know too much for the lasombra-specific card, but Tzimisce are much worse than what static vote may show, because they have neither vote-specific card (like Unexpected Coalition or Ferraille), Presence, nor vote-related special on their vampire (sorry in advance if I have forgotten one vampire, but in the Gr4 they sure have no vote-related special).

The Lasombra have Power Structure (one of their best clan cards) and Political Struggle (which is actually quite a good card). In terms of vote-related specials, you have super Priscus Gratiano, untapping Antonio, abstaining for blood Alvaro, and bishop-granting Tobias.

The Tzimisce mainly have Terrifisto, with his heavy-handed "you really want to vote against me?" special. They don't have innately, but they have a very strong lineup in Group 2/3 (Velya, The Rose, Lambach). Also note that they have the strongest line of Group 3 titles among all the Sabbat clans (and the only one with a G3 Cardinal). This makes a really strong lineup of G2/3 vampires of 2 Cardinals, 2 Archbishops, a Priscus, Vykos as an additional Priscus/Archbishop/Cardinal (with Merged Vykos you have 3 Cardinals in that grouping combination!) and 2 Bishops. Earlier when I was comparing Group 4 to Group 2, that sort of understated the Tzimisce political situation because it wasn't taking into account the Tzimisce's amazing Group 3 (which can be combined with either Group 2 or Group 4).

Not that I disagree with your post as a whole, because Tzims have indeed plenty titles, but what exactly is this amazing group 3 crypt you're talking about?

There's Velya (who is certainly good for voting, having presence and all), Szechenyi Jolan (but ye, 9-cap Bishop...) and John Paleologus title-wise and that's it. Almost the entirety of the strong Tzim vote crypt is in group 2, with Velya nicely synergizing in in group 3.

Izaak wrote:

Not that I disagree with your post as a whole, because Tzims have indeed plenty titles, but what exactly is this amazing group 3 crypt you're talking about?

Amazing relative to what the other Sabbat clans have in Group 3, and amazing in terms that you can combine it with Group 2 or Group 4, which each individually have a reasonable array of titles by themselves.

In Group 3, the Lasombra just have Dr. Julius Sutphen for titles. The Ventrue Antitribu just have Jesse Menks. The !Brujah have Marcel de Breau and Antonio Veradas. Compare that to the Tzimisce's Velya, John, and Szechenyi Jolán.