bahari card ideas

Molloy wrote:

Servant of the Dark Mother

+1 stealth action. Only useable by a non-Bahari Vampire, Werewolf or Mage. Put this card on this minion and untap another ready Bahari. This minion is Bahari. If this minion was a Camarilla vampire, he or she is now Independent. The minion with this card cannot dodge or strike to end combat. Strikes to dodge or end combat cost opposing minions an additional blood or life.

Seems a bit much. I don't know if it would see use.

Share the Pain

Requires a Bahari minion. Enter combat with a tapped minion controlled by your predator or prey. In the resulting combat, this minion has a mandatory press to continue combat each round. Until the end of the action (even if the action is unsuccessful) strikes that inflict damage inflict an additional damage.

Honestly, I don't know if the Bahari should have a bottomless-pressing Trap-rush. As written, unless someone has a 'press to end', it would continue combat until someone goes to torpor.

Light from Darkness


Requires a Bahari minion. This Bahari minion burns two blood or life for +2 bleed.

Whaaa? It's more than a little expensive. Seems overpowered especially since it doesn't limit any future bleed modifiers. I'd drop the blood cost by 1 and put the "No other action modifiers may be played to increase the bleed of this action"-type clause on it.

Miller Delmardigan, Teacher of Bahari
G2


Advanced. Sabbat. Bahari. Once each turn, Miller may burn one blood to give a Bahari minion you control +1 bleed, +1 intercept or +1 strength until the end of the action.

I think there should be a way for Miller to make vampires Bahari. Maybe something like:
"Merged: While Miller is ready, a non-Bahari vampire you control can burn 2 blood after a successful action to become a Sabbat Bahari."

Mina Grotius
G3


Advanced. Laibon. Bahari. When Mina is in combat, both combatants and each of their retainers take one damage each round before range is determined. Mina may strike for 1R.

I don't know about this text. A built-in weather control on a minion without seems a bit extreme. Maybe adding an interesting merged text would be a good option.

Rico Loco
G4


Advanced. Sabbat. Bahari. When Rico enters play, you may place a Masochism card and a Master: Discipline card on him from your hand, library or ash heap. Tap Rico during your discard phase.

Meh... not thrilled on that special.

Molloy wrote:

Light from Darkness


Requires a Bahari minion. This Bahari minion burns two blood or life for +2 bleed.

I was trying to work out where the crux of my issue is, and the other Bahari tech kind of clouded my thoughts a little.



Lilith's Blessing is already very good - not universally playable, of course, but I doubt that anyone would seriosuly say it's a bad card, overall. This card makes it better, and potentially significantly better. The burn option means it has very little baggage (hand jam possibility, in particular) - you can load up quite a few, and it won't be much of a problem if you draw a few before you draw/play Lilith's Blessing.

Quite a few players (though by no means all, or even a majority) have previously indicated that they think Lilith's Blessing warrants errata. Now, you might or might not agree with that - personally, I think it's probably okay as is - but it's not that hard to see where they're coming from.

But even if you don't think it warrants errata, I'm not sure it warrants being improved. And this card makes it quite a bit better, with no downsides.

So, does this card make an already good card better? Yes, I'd say - quite a bit better. And then my question is.... do we really want to do that?



I know little about the Bahari in the WoD, but from my point of view (purely the strategy card game element), it might be nice seeing a keyword that gave benefits and problems. Most keywords (traits, clans, disciplines etc.) are generally very positive, with very few downsides - Infernal is an obvious exception. Various have relatively small corner-cases where they're bad, such as a very specific hoser that an opponent must include. But there isn't really much where you do something (perhaps at no direct cost), but have some penalty. Some people's conception of Mage cards, generating Paradox, have taken that sort of path. I wonder if there's room (strategic and thematic) for that with the Bahari.

Agree with James and Ankha. Bahari is the trait that I see as being closest to Infernalism, i.e. it ought to give both pluses and minuses.

Excluding the bahari-spawning card from the lot, a good design venue for them might be to give them good cards that cost blood. I don't much mind the bleed modifier (provided it gets the "no more bleed mods may be played" text) if we allow for Bahari to only be created through Lilith's Blessing or somesuch other method that requires that the minion be emptied first.

Of course, for me, the biggest deterrent to properly creating/commenting on the propriety of lilith-related cards is how little I know regarding the background.


Drain

I don't see so big point of designing cards for Bahari and don't see game getting much deeper with it. Bahari trait comes with only card and that trait doesn't play very big part in games (same as Sabbat Inquisitor). Also Lilith's Blessing is already a strong card and I wouldn't like to see even more stronger.

I think only reason Bahari exist is because Lilith's Blessing needed balancing to be used only once per vampire and making vampires Bahari was cool way to do that with storyline card. I would like to see more cards working for existing traits like Primogen, Bishop, Regent etc.

EDIT
I don't like that infernalism is important thing in Vtes (especially was in storylines) when it was not focused with original roleplaying game.

Surreal wrote:

I don't like that infernalism is important thing in Vtes (especially was in storylines) when it was not focused with original roleplaying game.

Well, it was for most of the second and third edition one of the major plot points.

I agree that VtES tend to forget the others ones (like Tremere/Saulot dirty research, the Giovanni Master Plan (TM), etc ...). In fact, no real antediluvian meddling (except Fear of Mekhet maybe ?) can really be seen in VtES meaning the baali seem the most powerful force at work.

Also, bahari are not exactly the same thing as baali, in the same way that !tremere are not exactly baali.