Card idea - Obscure god's creation

Steinar wrote:

I like the card idea, and I agree that it should cost at least 2-3 blood.

Spirit marionet is more powerful and cost no blood. Mind rape is a lot more powerful and cost 2 blood. I am not sure at all the card is interesting with such an huge cost.

Steinar wrote:

On the other hand I think cards like this make rush-combat even weaker, something we should want to avoid.

I agree. It's hard however to make a card that work against mind rape and all, and not against combat

Steinar wrote:

I also think that lack of defence should be the price to pay when playing OBF.

There is two side :
* fluff-wise, obfuscate without defence is pretty strange. If you can't even acertain the existence of your ennemy, how do you harm it ?
* power-wise, is a good side discipline, for example for big cap that bleed with dom, but clans with obfuscate, except for malkavian, tend not to fare too well. It's good and all to be able to put your action throught, but it's not enough. You can ask !nosferatu or !city gangrel. Assamite also have problem defence-wise. So, it seem easier to market a defence to help all thoses clan at once.

Ohlmann wrote:

The idea is born from the fact that clan, except for the Malkavian, tend to lack defense. Both Nosferatu, city !gangrel, and assamite could use a bit more defense.

I think the whole idea is silly. Let's explain why :
if you play a clan, basically it means that you want your actions to pass. You have access to more stealth than all the other disciplines combined, plus the infamous "can't block with this guy".
Si effectively, you are trading your defense for offense = passing your actions through.

so tu sum up :

Steinar wrote:

I also think that lack of defence should be the price to pay when playing OBF.

OBF already had a big boos with No trace, Mental Maze... and even if the card is underplayed, Confusion of the Eye may be one of the best vote defence around. So, now you want to add anti-rush and anti-bleed to ?
I think deckbuilding is interesting precisely because you have to make choices when balancing aggressivity/defense, and choosing disciplines is a part of these choices.
Sorry, I don't like the idea.

Reyda wrote:

I think the whole idea is silly. Let's explain why :
if you play a clan, basically it means that you want your actions to pass. You have access to more stealth than all the other disciplines combined, plus the infamous "can't block with this guy".
Si effectively, you are trading your defense for offense = passing your actions through.

It work wonderfully if you have something else to protect you, or if you want to oust super fast

Now, explain me what kind of action does take the aforementioned clans (nosferatu, assamite, city gangrel) that allow them to either defend efficiently or oust quickly ? There is the only two responses I can think of :
* bleed with loss (for assamite, which already work more or less)
* rush (and does stealthing rush with other card really help you ?)

That's why I think the idea is not silly. Dominate would be a more straigth example of a discipline that allow you to have offense ; no luck, it also provide defence.

Also, the discipline could be changed and the effect tweaked for another discipline. One of the concept is doing an original bleed redirection effect.

Ohlmann wrote:

kind of action does take the aforementioned clans (nosferatu, assamite, city gangrel) that allow them to either defend efficiently or oust quickly ? There is the only two responses I can think of :
* bleed with loss (for assamite, which already work more or less)
* rush (and does stealthing rush with other card really help you ?)

Oh, you you must be kidding. There is more than 3 clans who have access to ...
Nosferatu make for very, very strong vote decks, in case you didn't witness them in action.

Ohlmann wrote:

Dominate would be a more straigth example of a discipline that allow you to have offense ; no luck, it also provide defence.

Yes we all know that dominate is powerful so this answer was predictable, but it does not pas its action alone. Let's not make the same mistake by giving every possible defense (rush & bleed) to a single discipline please.

Ohlmann wrote:

Also, the discipline could be changed and the effect tweaked for another discipline. One of the concept is doing an original bleed redirection effect.

I thought the whole point was to give defense to obfuscate ? But it could make an interesting chimestry card if worded properly...

Reyda wrote:

Oh, you you must be kidding. There is more than 3 clans who have access to ...

Yes.
Follower of set, who have the same problem of having very slow clan-specific mechanism (corruption) but that already can bloat and already can stealth bleed.
Malkavian, who may need help for "fun and insane" deck but can create efficient down to earth deck.
And Baali, who don't really need help.

Would they be interested by this card ? Well, maybe, but all three already have good defensive package, while the card is not (supposed) to be considered as as powerful as, said, deflection. (because of the need for a successful action before the countered action and all).

If the power is to be lowered, I believe that adding restriction would be better than raising cost. The goal is not to be the next Faerie Ward.

Reyda wrote:

Yes we all know that dominate is powerful so this answer was predictable, but it does not pas its action alone.
Let's not make the same mistake by giving every possible defense (rush & bleed) to a single discipline please.

Seduction and Bonding make 'Hi!' as low-power action enabler. I insist on low power : I am not saying that they own completely Elder Impersonnation or Forgotten labyrinth, just that they are examples of off-color card that are not too powerful but still allow more diverses strategies.

You could also add Crocodile Tongue or Perfect Parangon to the pool of relatively low power action enabler for discipline that already do defence or provide useful actions, and Mysterceria, while having to be more powerful than regular discipline, provide moderate stealth and moderate bleed. The point is, useful action and defence may not be an unbalanced idea in a stealth discipline.

Reyda wrote:

I thought the whole point was to give defense to obfuscate ? But it could make an interesting chimestry card if worded properly...

For example. Especially if the blood cost is not too high, because while you're at it, Sensory Deprivation would be rather clearly better than this card if it costed 3 blood, and Chimestry tend to be extremely expensive already.

* fluff-wise, obfuscate without defence is pretty strange. If you can't even acertain the existence of your ennemy, how do you harm it ?

Well, fluff-wise (as i presume), no vampire will sustain obfuscate all the time. He can't predict when and from what direction he would be attacked.
So, maybe, it'll be more reasonable to make a cost of 1 pool for this card. You know, methuselah's knowledge is invovlved.
Although, I like the card effect, i have to agree with Reyda: obfuscate have already enough defence.