[submission] Virstania, the Great Mother (advanced)

jamesatzephyr wrote:

GreyB wrote:

Name: Virstania, the Great Mother (advanced)
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Gargoyle
Group: 3
Capacity: 8
Disciplines: THA, FOR, VIS, pot, aus
Advanced, Independent: Virstania can burn a blood to give a gargoyle +1 intercept.
(merged) Your gargoyles get +1 strength and +1 intercept against actions

Being a fairly large Gargoyle without Flight is quite an annoyance, given that Flight has some great cards for Gargoyles - Patrol, As the Crow, Dive Bomb.

I'm not sure how I'd work it in there, but I'd try to work it in at Advanced (not Merged) level. Possibly drop the intercept special, restrict it to once per turn, or something like that. "Once per turn, Virstania can burn a blood to give an untapped Gargoyle +1 intercept", maybe. Or "When Virstania enters play, you may burn a pool to give her Flight for the rest of the game." Not sure how to word that so that it would work if you had the base in play and merged in the advanced. Possibly just also include Flight at the merged level, possibly redundantly.

Yeah uhm... I simply forgot to add flight... It should be in there. Without merged and with flight it's still a balanced vampire if you compare it with Gangrel for example and Gangrel as a clan is more allrounder (votes, bleed) than (pure) Gargoyles. Presence and Dominate are skills you should never see on a gargoyle for example due to the clans weaknesses. So you only have a combat/intercept angle with Gargoyles.

advanced vampire can't lose any discpline levels that the base vampire has, thats just not how it works.

Klaital wrote:

advanced vampire can't lose any discpline levels that the base vampire has,

Why? There's no problem doing it mechanically - the rules tell us what happens:

Nor is there any thematic reason it couldn't happen. It would potentially make an awful lot of sense for an advanced Malkavian to have Dementation instead of Dominate.

Klaital wrote:

thats just not how it works.

Yes, but that also means that all the vampires in the game are Camarilla, because having different sects just isn't how the game works because nothing can change from Jyhad.

Ok so James, please do point me to any current advanced vampires as an example of one that doesn't have all discpline levels of the base vampire?

Klaital wrote:

Ok so James, please do point me to any current advanced vampires as an example of one that doesn't have all discpline levels of the base vampire?

Please point me to any Sabbat vampires before the Sabbat set - vampires being Sabbat is just not how it works. Please point me to any equipment locations before Dark Sovereigns - equipment being a location is just not how it works. Please point me to any vampires with a non-default sect before Lucita - vampires having non-default sects is just not how it works. Orpheus explained how aim cards can only target body parts because anything else is not how it works - then we got Target Retainer. Please point me to a non-unique crypt card prior to Final Nights - crypt cards being non-unique is just not how it works.

V:TES has a history of doing things it hasn't done before. If you think what is being suggested here is bad or problematic or backfiring or not as good as some alternative you have, then those would be sensible and legitimate points to raise. Saying "V:TES hasn't done this before, therefore it can't" is... not at all illuminating or helpful.

This is a situation where losing/ changing disciplines works. Base version sucks. If she had fortitude and big DOM,sed be good. She doesnt. This submission isnt bad, and frankensteining yourself into a gargoyle is bound to have some consequences. Did we use the pre or vic? Did we use her period?

Mono gargoyles suck. OP, putting them on par with Gangrel makes 2 similar clans who suck at bleeding and winning cycle combat for a gold medal at the special olympics.

Now, gargoyles do things Gangrel cant:
Shit out cats, dogs, and bats
As the crow
Tool up with preturnatural and armor of terra
Play non discipline combat effectively
And
Lose at vtes.

But strength and walling is cool, and bleed pump with merged is too. Id say cheaping out razor ats and pumping strength would make gargoyles tier 2 instead of joke decks, but the options existing would be neat anyway.