New expansion and card ideas

Reading this thread again,

Re: Contents
I think it needs about 8 vampires per clan to "complete" G5 for the main sabbat clans, this is more than I think should be printed in a single expansion.
So we're left with the question of whether to complete some clans or partially complete all of them.
Another option, if there is some way to loosely tie together a few clans thematically (eg. the idea posted above for a Templar / Inquisitor based set), would be printing (for example) 5 vampires for each of 3 clans and 1 for each of the others. (Numbers obviously variable depending on the total number of cards in the set)

Re: Funding
Something akin to the kickstarter idea could be used to generate initial capital. It could be organised through there or directly by VEKN, whichever organisers found easier. I would certainly be interested in supporting such an endeavor.

Re: Format
Assuming we're talking about a printed product here, and not a PDF only print&play style expansion.
I suspect trying to make new starters would drive the cost up significantly as you would have possible extra licensing issues as well as the obvious print costs, so I don't think it's worth doing.
I think a fixed, non-random, box of (for eg) 5 copies of each of 20 'commons', 2 of each of 20 Vampires, and 1 of each of 20 'rares' would be a good way to distribute it. I don't think a completely even distribution would work as well.

An alternative to the above is to use a service like Artscow where punters can print out a fixed 54 card micro-expansion (eg 5 x 6 commons, 2 x 6 vampires, 2 x 6 rares). But you would then be limited to their card size, which for that site is about 1mm to large in each dimension.

Kraus wrote:

What I would love to see is an expansion of roughly 20-30 cards or so, but published in short intervals. These cards would be then distributed amongst princes (or other organizers) as promo cards, with "unofficial VEKN publishment" tag or something in the bottom edge of the card. With distributing I mean selling with prices to cover printing and posting.

We have two major advantages regargind this approach: quality of printing and focus on game driven communities. The former should be clear. With some monetary input the print quality of cards would easily reach professional standards, and increase the popularity of the set; and thus, the game itself. The expenses need investments, obviously, and this is quiet a problem, but if people pay their share of the expenses for the packs, a part of the dilemma is solved.

The latter is rather important too. To have something to wait for is very important to a CCG audience, and new promo cards would obviously fill that vacuum. It also encourages people to engage in social gaming, rather than forming collections of their own. The collectibility is thus back in the game. It also inspires tournament scenes, which is also a very important thing in maintaining gaming. It also improves chances of people getting hooked again the game from the start. Beginners would gain some goals to strive for.

Obviously this approach would require much prince activity on the first glance. This is not the idea, however, but the packs should be delivered to anyone willing to contribute - and thus, the 'buying' aspect comes into play. An option for princes to gather stacks of these promos for tournament play or other activities is maintained easily, but those without a tournament group or something should have an option to 'buy' those packs too.

Think about it. I don't think it's a bad idea. Obviously we need someone to take care of the printing and such, and to have some money to invest in this. I'll leave it to those people (if there are any) to judge if they should be paid for their endeavour (as in, the price of a promo pack would extend over the print and post expenses) or not.

Ideas? I think it's a good idea. Quiet problematic to pull off, though. But possible.

In every way, I see this being awful. Unique promos are already bad for CCGs, yet you want to add more. They've never sold CCGs, only events where you could get them and only to people already invested in the games. Meanwhile, they are a rich get richer mechanic which becomes discouraging to new players and players with limited means.

Limited distribution only makes it harder to play the game, with some players familiar with cards others aren't. While that can be true of groups already, at least the distribution of normal sets has been fair.

If anything, fan sets/whatever should be easier for everyone to get than normal cards. It's a much harder sell to sell people on playing with unofficial cards than official cards.

As for costs, costs aren't the problem. Last I heard, Shadowfist still comes out with new sets that are orderable directly, if you want a model for dealing with the printing costs. The problems, as stated at least, are legal. To get around legal issues, you don't sell anything.

So, what do you do? I recall that one or more dead CCGs made stickers that could be put over coasters. Perhaps it's legally possible to just freely distribute unofficial cards for a dead CCG, which someone could eat the costs for if they really wanted.

Or, just don't do anything. This CCG, like many, has plenty of cards. There are tons of decks that can be made and similar management of the game to what we have had will not see a major change in how the game plays, anyway, it will just increase game complexity. It's better for new players not to have to chase more and more cards. It's easier for everyone not to introduce new mechanics. Make up some storyline variants and you can get variety of play forever without ever printing another card.

Would the strategy of leaving the game alone ever work for a two-player CCG? Probably not. Eventually, the game will become so played out, with a stale metagame, that it will essentially have no playerbase. But, a multiplayer CCG is different. V:TES went without new cards for years, previously. Whether that could be sustained forever, a multiplayer CCG just becomes more like an extremely complicated boardgame.

I find it telling that so many want to fill out group 5 and go into group 6 for clans that have plenty of vampires when the clans that clearly need the most attention are the Laibon ones. Are Laibon unpopular because they haven't been given enough to work with or have they not been given enough to work with because they are unpopular?

In every way, I see this being awful. Unique promos are already bad for CCGs, yet you want to add more. They've never sold CCGs, only events where you could get them and only to people already invested in the games. Meanwhile, they are a rich get richer mechanic which becomes discouraging to new players and players with limited means.

Limited distribution only makes it harder to play the game, with some players familiar with cards others aren't. While that can be true of groups already, at least the distribution of normal sets has been fair.

If anything, fan sets/whatever should be easier for everyone to get than normal cards. It's a much harder sell to sell people on playing with unofficial cards than official cards.

Definitely.

Let's clear my message out a bit: The distribution should by no means be restricted only to VEKN Princes, but should be fundable (or "buyable), and thus reachable, by everyone. Being able to use those cards as promos is just a very nifty extra, but then again, princes would be able to do that anyways. At least around in here not everyone is up to ordering cards from the internet - especially when they're not exactly legal for game, unless some kind of an authority is telling them they are! And that authority vacuum is easily filled by princes.

I understand that this rant does not exactly address the issue at hand, but glances so fiercly that I think contemplation is in order.

Long story short, I too think that the cards should definitely be available to everyone. I was just promoting the importance of contact personnel, such as princes, in play groups.

As for costs, costs aren't the problem. Last I heard, Shadowfist still comes out with new sets that are orderable directly, if you want a model for dealing with the printing costs. The problems, as stated at least, are legal. To get around legal issues, you don't sell anything.

Sounds convincing enough. I'm sold. If it's really that much not a money issue, we'll just need someone to start taking care of the printings, and looking into the matter in further detail.

As for the legal details, of course we're not exactly selling anyone anything. Doing some extra research about this would not hurt, however. What else needs there be? Some extra piece of text, like, "Not White-Wolf sanctioned." or "VEKN-legal play only." or something?

@Mael– awesome idea with Kickstarter (cool concept!), I think that could definitely work out, especially if what ICL says about production costs being manageable (at least for Shadowfist) is right.

Also like the idea of a fixed set of cards, this is how I understand A Game of Thrones works these days. Players are probably more likely to be willing to fund cards if they know there is no risk of getting a terrible spread of cards (like we have had in some of the recent editions). The combination of a fixed spread and a few teaser revelations of cards prior to opening up for sale should be the best way to make new cards interesting for players, I would think.


@ICL – first, I think the discussion here is based on the hypothesis that new cards will be made at some point, and if so, which considerations should be made in the process of creating those cards. Whether we should have any expansions at all is a different (but of course also very relevant!) question.

As for the legal details, I am a lawyer myself – though not specialized in intellectual property rights, I have given a few thoughts to this (NB this is mainly speculation, so take it for what it is, my random thoughts):

I would expect the publication of new cards to be a potential infringement of 1) White Wolfs rights to the WoD background, and 2) Wizards of the Coast’s rights to the game mechanics (this is my understanding of the current ownership of the rights to VTES).

If new cards were produced in breach of these rights, the producers (i.e. designers, persons ordering cards from the printing company etc.) could potentially be sued for loss suffered (hmmm?), and court orders could be imposed to stop the production/distribution of cards, and e.g. to recover already distributed cards. Criminal penalties might also apply. There is even a risk that the company that actually prints the cards would be subject to liability, so they would probably demand documentation for the rights to VTES anyway before agreeing to print any cards. This is of course only the case if one of the abovementioned rights owners a) are aware that cards are being printed and b) decide to take legal action.

In short, I definitely think legal rights needs to be thought through. Anyone from VEKN out there who knows more about this? I wonder how the shadowfist people do it - any ideas ICL?

Of course, you can come up with all kinds of proxy ideas (incl. putting stickers on cards), but that just seems to me to be a bit too desperate and against the spirit of the way we play the game/tournaments now.


I think there’s a lot of interesting ideas and it would be good to hear what people think about this, including the players that don’t normally participate in this forum. I was thinking I would contact someone like extrala to see if a poll could be run on that site e.g. on whether people would be interested in funding a new expansion through kickstarter, and what size/frequency of expansions they would prefer.

Brum wrote:

My input in this:
No change in mechanics.
No nerfing or wallpapering existing cards.
New group 6 Sabbat Vampires, specially Montano (Camarilla Lasombra Inner Circle?)
whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Montano

If people do think something needs to change, the Alastor / Trophy mechanic needs improvement (maybe in a third release?).

Tiago Brum

NO MONTANO, Lasombra already have too many vampires that aren't sabbat.