What is missing from VtES?

elotar wrote:

TwoRazorReign wrote:

So, he was saying that perhaps first strike could be removed because it "sees game use in very few instances" and cited Canine Horde.

BenPeal wrote:

With something like First Strike, I can see the merit in eliminating it from the rulebook and changing the text of the cards that use it. ... The effect could be moved out of the rulebook and onto the cards.

I think maybe one of the reason of many "heated arguments" is that people doesn't read what is proposed carefully.

I understood that part of it. "Remove" in my previous post means "remove from the rulebook." My point is why remove the first strike effect from the rulebook and move it to the cards on the basis of the effect having a limited use at the tournament level? I think that mechanics shouldn't be moved/removed/change solely because the tournament scene doesn't have much use for it.

Also, I don't think this argument is "heated." I think it's a fun discussion!

Ezra wrote:

I have no problem with trying to improve the game, but right now it's mostly peoples throwing crazy ideas like "4 cards limit" or "removing S:CE" or "ban Villein" because they don't like it, without thinking how it would globally affect the game.

Not peoples (that is, several people), basically almost all, if not all of these have come from the one and the same person...

Lönkka wrote:

Not peoples...

TwoRazorReign wrote:

I understood that part of it.

So you understand, that nothing will change in a game but you are still got problems with it?

"Baba Yaga is against" is a saying in Russia for situations, when something is rejected with no reason (very common situation in life here). I think we could use it for VtES related questions either.

I understand that a concept will be removed from the rulebook and new card text will be produced as a result because some tournament-level players decided the concept didn't fit their play style, yes. That's maybe a different kind of change than you were thinking of, but it's still a change.

TwoRazorReign wrote:

I understand that a concept will be removed from the rulebook and new card text will be produced as a result because some tournament-level players decided the concept didn't fit their play style, yes. That's maybe a different kind of change than you were thinking of, but it's still a change.

I think that's a mischaracterization of the motives, intentions, and behavior of the people you're describing. For my part, yes, I've been playing the game since it launched and I have an extensive tournament history. However, I'm not trying to bend the game to my style of play, either as a player or as a designer. There are many styles of play in V:TES - some of which I'm not good at - and the game is richer for it. I would also not give my personal thumbs-up to a change to First Strike at this time, as it hasn't been discussed and explored thoroughly here among the community or by the Rules Team. As I said earlier in this thread, perhaps the right approach is to try to do more with First Strike. I think it's unlikely that it's the right approach, but that line of thought should be explored. As for eliminating First Strike from the rulebook and moving the appropriate text to cards, the impact of this would have to be explored first: how many cards are affected, what the text should be on each card, what the proper templating for the text should be, if this results in too much text space used, etc.

I also respect the concept of "exploration space" in a game. Part of the fun of a game is trying out the options and strategies and mechanics for one's self, especially when discovering them for the first time. Eliminating a mechanic would involve eliminating some amount of exploration space. I'm not of the opinion that First Strike has much to offer in the way of exploration space, and this opinion is based on both tournament decklist data and on my personal experience of playing V:TES casually and in tournaments over the past 21 years.

I'm of the opinion that in this case, less is more and the rulebook - and a new player's experience with learning the game - would be improved by eliminating First Strike. And Imbued. And Red List. And Events. And possibly some other stuff. None of this is scheduled to happen at this time, if at all. Just my opinions.