What is missing from VtES?

elotar wrote:

TwoRazorReign wrote:

Well, I mean, have you thought about it? You are throwing out tons of strange ideas to "fix" the game. Do you actually like playing a game you think needs so much fixing? Not trying to be rude, I really am curious.

It's like saying to the guy, who spends most of his time with his chopper tuning and upgrading it, that he actually don't like motorcycles and should ride, i don't know, bus instead.

Actually I think the opposite is in order - the guys who "like the game as it is" don't really care about the game.

Maybe we just agree with Ankha's point of view or we think there's still much to deckbuild with the existing card pool and the actual rules to give a complete overhaul to the game.

Usuallt in multiplayer games good players tend to adapt to the game state instead of changing the game state.

This post reminds me sooo much to wow forums...

Gold rule of rules making is "Keep it simple".
If anything should be done with first strike it's removing this mechanic from the game. It's one of the examples of unneeded, niche mechanic that doesn't bring anything to the game but makes it a little more rules heavy. Such things (among many others) keep new players from starting their adventure with vtes

alek wrote:

Gold rule of rules making is "Keep it simple".
If anything should be done with first strike it's removing this mechanic from the game. It's one of the examples of unneeded, niche mechanic that doesn't bring anything to the game but makes it a little more rules heavy. Such things (among many others) keep new players from starting their adventure with vtes

I agree with you, but is first strike THAT complicated ?
vtesone.wordpress.com/2016/01/27/vtes-rules-first-strike-qa/

elotar wrote:

TwoRazorReign wrote:

Well, I mean, have you thought about it? You are throwing out tons of strange ideas to "fix" the game. Do you actually like playing a game you think needs so much fixing? Not trying to be rude, I really am curious.

It's like saying to the guy, who spends most of his time with his chopper tuning and upgrading it, that he actually don't like motorcycles and should ride, i don't know, bus instead.

Actually I think the opposite is in order - the guys who "like the game as it is" don't really care about the game.

I get what you are saying. But, to use your bike analogy, when you throw ideas out like banning Conditioning and overhauling a minor combat mechanic like FS, you're doing the equivalent of saying "red motorcycles go faster, so everybody paint their motorcycle red." If you think that, why don't you just go find a red motorcycle to ride instead of spending so much time here trying to convince the powers that be to change things?

Look, I totally get why people say "leave the game alone, it's fine". We've been enjoying it for years, so why mess with it?

I also get why people want to talk about improving the game. What's wrong with making it better?

As I've said a few times before, I think there's a lot more right with V:TES than wrong with it, but there's a lot that's wrong with V:TES. White Wolf (new White Wolf) has also told us (the VEKN ICs) that there are a bunch of issues they have with V:TES, particularly the length and complexity of the rules and the massive card base. Over the past few years, the Rules Team (Vincent and Pascal) have been working on overhauling the card text templating as well as overhauling the rules. Their work has been in the context of keeping the game as we know it, just with much less duct tape and twine.

With something like First Strike, I can see the merit in eliminating it from the rulebook and changing the text of the cards that use it. Sure, it's not a complex rule, but it sees game use in very few instances (in practice, almost exclusively Canine Horde). The effect could be moved out of the rulebook and onto the cards. Perhaps we (the Design Team) could instead make more use of First Strike.

At any rate, there's no need to snipe at each other. We all want to enjoy the game and discussing ideas and thought experiments are nothing to get personally upset over.

(It's nearly 5am here, so I hope my english isn't too broken)
I have no problem with trying to improve the game, but right now it's mostly peoples throwing crazy ideas like "4 cards limit" or "removing S:CE" or "ban Villein" because they don't like it, without thinking how it would globally affect the game.

If the game is back to print, then yes it might be worth it to change few thing. I don't think anyone would mind if first strike is removed from the rulebook and Canine Horde/Quick Jab (yes, I play quick jab, works great with Chiropteran Marauder) get a similar effect on text.
But don't simplify too much. My friend and I started playing few years ago, and that "complexity" is what made us fall in love with the game.
And I really don't believe in reducing the length of the game without killing the very thing that make VTES. And 2 hours game is not that long for a 5 players games.
They (WW) might try to make a 2 players variants if they want short game. I won't be interested, and I now most of my playgroup won't be. Be it might be a good option to draw new players.

And if the game doesn't go back to print, no need to make big changes. You won't have more new players, and older ones will just quit the game.