file Remove Decks From TWDA

10 Mar 2020 17:18 #99237 by Sydnelson
Replied by Sydnelson on topic Remove Decks From TWDA

Lönkka wrote: One of the very strengths of TWDA is the fact that it is more or less complete.

Thus it is an immense resource and of enormous value to players thus helping the community.

Also it gives insights on the (past) trends and the more it has holes, the less useful it becomes.

Do we really need to start adding a "by participating in the tournament you agree to have your decklist shared until eternity" -clause to the tournaments?

Fernando, I implore you not to go this route and start a very harmful trend for the game and the community, mate!


I just asked a question.

I expected an answer like:
Just speak your name and I will remove you from that list OR it is not possible to remove the names from there.

Did not expect a discussion with dozens of posts.

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10 Mar 2020 19:49 #99239 by Kilrauko
Replied by Kilrauko on topic Remove Decks From TWDA

Lönkka wrote: Do we really need to start adding a "by participating in the tournament you agree to have your decklist shared until eternity" -clause to the tournaments?


That clause already exists there, VEKN tournament rules that participants agree to by taking part has the following;

"1.6. Publishing Event Information

White Wolf, Inc. reserves the right to publish event information such as the contents of any player's deck as well as transcripts or video reproductions of any sanctioned tournament. The tournament organizer is also permitted to publish event information."

Deck contents are event information and the tournament organizer is permitted to publish event information. If people disagree with that they're free to either not take part in said event or not grant it to tournament organizers and get the response one receives when not agreeing with tournament organizer on their rule admitted right.

Then again I know how hard it is to remember tournament rules, lord knows I broke the Spectator responsibility last time. It was moot situation that judge would have corrected but still I broke the conduct by saying stuff out loud instead pointing it to judge. Stuff happens, memory fails and bad choices are made. I can see how people might assume their deck lists are their own private knowledge even when taking part to a event they allow it to become public information. Even if they won't win.

This is also why I feel we should put it to rules to require written decklist to be handed when taking part in a tourney as that would then be handed to organizer after the players "end their tournament". Organizer can then publish their choice of interesting or noteworthy decks for everyone to enjoy and ponder upon more easily without need to call after players (required vs. requested). The Grant to publish clause is already there, so the only difference to current is possible sanctions if that napkin deck list is not written by the time player ends their tournament. It could even be a caution level sanction if there's fear of people losing positions over napkin with writing on it. The Current format of winning deck only and perhaps few others if the player can be reached and/or remembers what their deck was is, well, lackluster. If it means printing a decklist that then might get last minute modifications with red pen, fine, if it's writing to a napkin during the event so be it but in the long distance it would serve the community to see what people play, new players would see examples, older players the overall trends in the tournaments. None of that is privacy concern as personal data is not published, the only losers in the situation are large tournament preppers who might hone their decks in smaller tournaments months earlier and get it published "too early." Despite them agreeing via participation that it's okay to publish.

Sydnelson wrote: I just asked a question.

I expected an answer like:
Just speak your name and I will remove you from that list OR it is not possible to remove the names from there.

Did not expect a discussion with dozens of posts.


That is the result of public forum and multiple differing stances on how records and privacy should be handled in 2020. Along with the fact that decades have passed since deck archive started and customs along with common sense has changed with the time. Hence I pointed towards http://www.vekn.net/site-administrators who are only ones with power and authority to handle VEKN site related things. Ankha (Administrator) already gave you one short answer. If you wish to try your luck for different one contacting Web Coordinator directly you could get that answer. But Fishing for a favorable resolution from different person on the same organization might give certain impression that affects the resolution on non legally binding matter.

Note that Ankha in my opinion commented on the decklist, not personal data as the topic of the thread and question in the OP is about removal of decks, not name. So the comment on speaking a name to get it removed or not is not really what this thread started and it's unfair to associate removing a decklist to be equal of removing a name. Name has legislation, treaties and regulation around it (if it's your real legal name), decklist might or might not be intellectual property depending how and what legislation is used and interpreted not to mention giving a rise of a question who came up with it first vs who reached TWDA win with it first.

If you wish to ensure your privacy in a fashion that cannot be denied without specific reasons I did point out the GDPR article 17 route for personal data that I'm quite sure will be granted considering how the site resides in France and follows EU regulation and the archive is not primarly about persons. It won't get the decklists associated with those tournament wins off the site but it will get rid of your association with them and there's really not much more that can be done to prevent people from contacting you and asking how they work.

But you need to be one making that kind of request via email or other direct contact form, this here is just discussion around the subject matter in "what if" format. After all there's a stark difference between a question on a forum about a decklist and a legally binding request for personal data that might be backed up with Commission Nationale de l'Informatique et des Libertés in this case. I highly recommend you give it a overnight ponder on what it actually means to request and have all your personal data removed from VEKN unless you've already done that and are adamant about it. You have soon two decades worth of VEKN history and erasing that to get rid of people contacting you over decks sounds like shooting flies with a cannon when simple flyswat copypaste "Sorry, no I won't." would suffice. Naturally your viewpoint is the only one that matters regarding your personal situation. Reading https://gdpr.eu/right-to-be-forgotten/ should help on the questions along with a sample template (the pdf is 404 but below it is example text version of what can aid and be requested). Same is true for other non vekn.net sites that might have the personal data you wish to have erased. The Sidebar Hall of Fame and Tournament Winning Decks after all hotlink to site that's not under vekn.net.

If you wish to cherry pick on what gets removed and what not, well it's a matter to discuss in direct contact as with most things case by case solutions tend to work the best. Ankha in my opinion gave a viewpoint on decklist cherrypicking already. Either way as the "without undue delay" has been legally considered to mean aprox a month, giving it one night sleep worth of a ponder is sensible.

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

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11 Mar 2020 09:55 #99244 by Lönkka
Replied by Lönkka on topic Remove Decks From TWDA

Sydnelson wrote: Did not expect a discussion with dozens of posts.


Hardly dozens.

This post of mine will be the 21st post on this thread ;)

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11 Mar 2020 14:10 #99246 by jamesatzephyr

Kilrauko wrote:

Lönkka wrote: Do we really need to start adding a "by participating in the tournament you agree to have your decklist shared until eternity" -clause to the tournaments?


That clause already exists there, VEKN tournament rules that participants agree to by taking part has the following;

"1.6. Publishing Event Information

White Wolf, Inc. reserves the right to publish event information such as the contents of any player's deck as well as transcripts or video reproductions of any sanctioned tournament. The tournament organizer is also permitted to publish event information."


Err, it may be worth someone correcting that to someone relevant, like BCP or Paradox. (And, indeed, the half dozen other references to White Wolf.)

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11 Mar 2020 14:11 #99247 by Sambomb
Replied by Sambomb on topic Remove Decks From TWDA
I think a good solution is to remove the player information from TWDA instead of the Deck list.
That way the information that is pertinent for the meta is kept in the list and the private information are hide.

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11 Mar 2020 15:14 - 11 Mar 2020 15:14 #99250 by TwoRazorReign

Lönkka wrote: Do we really need to start adding a "by participating in the tournament you agree to have your decklist shared until eternity" -clause to the tournaments?


That's beside the point. Just because someone reserves the right to do something doesn't mean that they have to always do it.

Fernando, I implore you not to go this route and start a very harmful trend for the game and the community, mate!


I just don't agree that this is setting a harmful trend. The TWDA is still a very valuable resource regardless of whether some players request to have their decks removed.

Kushiel wrote:

TwoRazorReign wrote: Sorry, but I just don't agree that the situation here presents a moral conundrum akin to those you stated above. If the reason to not allow a VEKN member (and fellow player) to have their deck lists removed from an archive is that it could create a bunch of ethical issues for VEKN regarding curation of that archive and potentially devalue the archive, I would think that the VEKN should probably get over it (and themselves) really fast.

It's a card game about vampires.


This argument doesn't work, since it cuts both ways. If it's just a card game about vampires (presumably something you're citing to indicate that this conundrum or pseudo-conundrum is of no real consequence to anyone), it's just as easy to argue that people requesting removal of their decklists from the archive should probably get over it (and themselves) really fast.


I actually agree with you. I would argue that everybody here needs to realize this is a stupid game about vampires, the original poster included. And especially those who think someone requesting what the original poster is requesting constitutes a "conundrum" or "pseudo-conundrum."
Last edit: 11 Mar 2020 15:14 by TwoRazorReign.

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