file Archeology: Jyhad combat as it can be reconstructed from present time

25 May 2018 15:32 - 30 May 2018 07:41 #87514 by elotar
Dunno where it belongs, so I'm putting it into off-topic. Generally it's continuation of one of the subpoints of a SCE thread.

So first, which can be seen observing Jyhad cards, is prevalence of "with optional maneuver" clauses. Most other "additional effects" usually are in the cards when you need to justify superior discipline and don't want to add just +1 to the basic, but most (all?) of the optional maneuver cards are different - they got no basic effect without the maneuver.

I've managed to come to only one possible explanation - default range of combat in VtES was long (which is extremely logical idea), but then it was set to close and all ranged cards got mentioned clause.

When we understand it, than basic combat structure of Jyhad becomes to unveil quite easily:

When two vampires who do not want to fight met, than the range is long, hands strikes deal no damage, so they actually do not need to bother.

Most basic combat card was Thrown Gate
:pot: 1R
:POT: 2R

Around this other cards are balanced.

First thing comes to mind - Continuation combat:
Aid from Bats
:ani: 1R
:ANI: as above, with an optional press

Or better one, but with a drawback:
Thrown Sewer Lid
Only usable at long range
:pot: 2R
:POT: as above, with an optional press

With, I think, most popular (in PR terms) combat card from Jyhad:
Well-Aimed Car
:pot: Strike: 4R (3R) damage; only usable at long range. Not usable first round of combat.
:POT: As above, with an optional press.

It looks that the logic was second round = 1 round * 2

So basic "hooligan" combat vs defenseless old lady was quite easy - you are throwing stuff until you are out of stuff or lady goes to torpor. As nobody was really expecting 7+ vampires outside of casual games (this knowledge was also lost during the time passed), 3 cards should be kind of enough to do the job.

From here basic defense appeared - press to end combat, which was given to all noncombat disciplines at basic as well as to just anybody with Open Grate.

Their superior effects:
Movement of the Mind Maneuver.
Read Intentions dodge
Vanish from the Mind's Eye Press - They was thinking about :nosf: combat at the time
Majesty As above, and burn one blood to untap ...
interesting - as other disciplines has no "as above" clause it may be
Majesty untap [if you are the active vampire]

Guns was an equalizer, level of discipline cost 1 capacity/pool, so:
Saturday-Night Special 1 pool 1R
.44 Magnum 2 pool 2R
Deer Rifle 2 pool 1R with an optional maneuver
Sawed-Off Shotgun 2 pool 3R only usable once each combat They forget to add "optional maneuver" to this when they moved to default close combat range

Why this was decided to cost 1 pool more I do not know by now. Because the damage was bigger than the :POT: and "equalizer" theme stopped working? Or maybe it can be attributed to the same wave of stupidity, and actual stats should be:
Submachine Gun 3 pool 3R
Assault Rifle 4 pool 4R
Flamethrower 4 pool 2R aggravated
Having 4R costing more than 2R aggravated looks quite stupid

or, and cool one:
RPG Launcher 2 pool 6R damage each strike; only usable after the first round of combat; only usable at long range. I think it was not changed at all so it understandingly suck now, but looks quite formidable in the old logic

By the way - about Zip Gun. As design logic was to include disciplineless effect for each common free basic discipline effect, it was like that:

Do not replace until after combat.
strike: 1R

And then some "roleplayer" started to argue that it's a gun, so lets add drawback but make it a real weapon...

Have been asked why I'm so sure about thoughts of the people quarter of century ago. I'm "so sure" not about all thoughts - clever ideas are hard to come by, but stupid ones are easy - they lie on the very surface, so all idiots are totally predictable - presented with the problem they all with choose the same solution. So if you see dumb solution you can reverse engineer the problem they was trying to solve

About ammo:
Manstopper Rounds +1 very basic
Glaser Rounds +2, but after the first use

So for 2 uses they are equal, for more it's better to use glaser. As it looks like that nobody involved with gaming at the time got any experience with real weapons we will not try to think about real-life logic here.

Dragon Breath This was, obviously, a royal fuck up.

To be continued...

:splat: NC Russia
:DEM::san::nec::cap4:
Last edit: 30 May 2018 07:41 by elotar.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
25 May 2018 20:33 - 25 May 2018 20:35 #87526 by Ankha

elotar wrote: I've managed to come to only one possible explanation - default range of combat in VtES was long (which is extremely logical idea), but then it was set to close and all ranged cards got mentioned clause.

When we understand it, than basic combat structure of Jyhad becomes to unveil quite easily:

Nah. The most incredible yet simple explanation is that Jyhad was designed by a technologically advanced alien race. They have reached a state of harmony and peace we can only dream of. They sent one of them under the disguised of a man called Richard Garfield in order to promote peace. Hence was created the combat ends.

elotar wrote: And then some "roleplayer" started to argue that it's a gun, so lets add drawback but make it a real weapon...

Clearly, you were there at that time, and so was I. IIRC I think it was the bartender who argued, while the roleplayer was puking in the toilets.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 25 May 2018 20:35 by Ankha.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kraus

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
27 May 2018 17:58 #87567 by Lönkka
*Yawn*

Who cares.
Such things can be pondered from here to infinity and unless we include Garfield etc to the discussion none will be any wiser. And it is entirely possible that even Garfield would not remember all the whys and wherefores involved in the designing.

So it all is just talk for talk's sake.
I think everyone has better things to do.

NC, Finland
Finnish :POT: Politics!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Lönkka
  • Lönkka's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Antediluvian
  • Antediluvian
  • War=peace, freedom=slavery, ignorance=strength
More
28 May 2018 07:42 #87585 by elotar

Lönkka wrote: *Yawn*
I think everyone has better things to do.


"I have better things to do then then commenting, so I would post a comment about it"

:P

:splat: NC Russia
:DEM::san::nec::cap4:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
28 May 2018 08:07 #87587 by Kraus
Srsly though, if you REALLY want to know what was going on, there's no harm done in trying to get a short interview (even email) from Garfield. That way you'll actually get answers instead of guess-work. Constructing an interview also helps in refining the questions and most important points of interest.

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise

Facebook @ VtES: Joensuu
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
28 May 2018 09:55 #87589 by elotar

Kraus wrote: Srsly though, if you REALLY want to know what was going on, there's no harm done in trying to get a short interview (even email) from Garfield. That way you'll actually get answers instead of guess-work. Constructing an interview also helps in refining the questions and most important points of interest.


Great idea! Do it! ;)

:splat: NC Russia
:DEM::san::nec::cap4:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
Moderators: AnkhaKraus
Time to create page: 0.159 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum