question-circle Sanctioned online tournament?

21 Aug 2018 15:18 #90167 by Yomyael
I think online tournaments fall in the same category as tournaments with proxies allowed. There are always possibilities to cheat, in online tournaments there are different ones to live tournaments and they are harder to spot, but I don't think that should be a problem.

I think the problem is, that once proxies are disallowed in regular, sanctioned tournaments, sanctioned online tournaments would still be (kind of) tournaments with proxies allowed. So, when you can play competitively, with your ranking affected, TWDA entries, and so forth, without needing to buy newly produced cards... why would you buy cards? To join in Continental Championships? What would the point of these when you could instead hold online World Championships with a lot higher attendance rate?

So, online play is wonderful for all those wanting to play more often than their regular playgroup does, even with online (non-sanctioned) tournaments. But having them sanctioned is the same as having proxies allowed forever (which, as BCP already stated, will not happen).

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21 Aug 2018 16:07 #90168 by jamesatzephyr

DJHedgehog wrote: I'm asking that they should be official. I can't see a reason to not allow them to be other than people who don't like when there are changes to "their" game. Literally every time someone talks about any sort of movement or change the same few people pop up to say why it shouldn't happen.


If you read what I wrote, I mentioned that perhaps they shouldn't apply to the same ratings as face-to-face tournaments, not that they shouldn't be rated at all. A fairly straightforward option would be to have ratings for online play handled separately from ratings for offline play, so that each rating represents the skill in a given environment.

DJHedgehog wrote: God forbid we allow people who can't make it to a live tournament to enjoy the competitive side of the game over the internet.


God forbid people should actually read what others have written before ascribing views to them that they haven't expressed.

DJHedgehog wrote: I believe that with the current multi-judge system, it's as easy to cheat in a live game as it is online.


If you're letting players wander off from the table during a game and have lengthy, secret discussions, possibly you're doing something wrong in your games.
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21 Aug 2018 17:57 #90172 by DJHedgehog

jamesatzephyr wrote:

DJHedgehog wrote: I'm asking that they should be official. I can't see a reason to not allow them to be other than people who don't like when there are changes to "their" game. Literally every time someone talks about any sort of movement or change the same few people pop up to say why it shouldn't happen.


If you read what I wrote, I mentioned that perhaps they shouldn't apply to the same ratings as face-to-face tournaments, not that they shouldn't be rated at all. A fairly straightforward option would be to have ratings for online play handled separately from ratings for offline play, so that each rating represents the skill in a given environment.


Why does it matter? The game is the same in both formats.

What rank are you? In a game with ~1000 players world wide, do you think that ranking truly matters?

jamesatzephyr wrote:

DJHedgehog wrote: God forbid we allow people who can't make it to a live tournament to enjoy the competitive side of the game over the internet.


God forbid people should actually read what others have written before ascribing views to them that they haven't expressed.


Why do you think this was directed at you?

jamesatzephyr wrote:

DJHedgehog wrote: I believe that with the current multi-judge system, it's as easy to cheat in a live game as it is online.


If you're letting players wander off from the table during a game and have lengthy, secret discussions, possibly you're doing something wrong in your games.


This is the second discussion here where deals have come up. I'm really wondering why this is at the forefront of so many people's minds.

There are other ways to cheat that are far more detrimental to the game. Those other types of cheating can be easily missed by a judge who is playing a game at another table, and are also far easier to detect online where there is a written record of every card drawn and played, and every blood gained or lost.

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21 Aug 2018 18:35 - 21 Aug 2018 18:39 #90175 by jamesatzephyr

DJHedgehog wrote: Why does it matter? The game is the same in both formats.


A game with secret deals and shared-but-secret information (e.g. contents of my hand) is not the same as a face-to-face game where those things are prevented from happening.

See also the fact that, for example, special/storyline tournaments can be excluded from being sanctioned (and rated), because even though they're V:TES, they're operating under different conditions.

DJHedgehog wrote: Why do you think this was directed at you?


Given that you wrote:
Literally every time someone talks about any sort of movement or change the same few people pop up to say why it shouldn't happen.

And I am one of the "few people" posting in this thread, there aren't many other people that you're aiming at.

DJHedgehog wrote: This is the second discussion here where deals have come up. I'm really wondering why this is at the forefront of so many people's minds.


Because deal-making gets messy, quickly. Amongst other things, it is one of the very few reasons that you can openly 'violate' play-to-win i.e. you are not forced to backstab someone, if your deal was play-to-win when you struck it. Unpicking this stuff is messy and even if an online system will record card plays, it cannot record information that was negotiated over Skype. Messy deal-making happens a lot in tournaments, and quite a few players repeatedly evacuate their bowels all over the Internet at the thought that a judge might step in and rule that a deal is illegal, because that means that the judge is going to dictate every single card play for them. (It doesn't mean that.) So there is an incentive for players to do these sort of deals in private, and just carry on, hiding it from everyone else.

DJHedgehog wrote: There are other ways to cheat that are far more detrimental to the game.


The fact that there are other issues does not mean that you should just screw up your eyes really tight and pretend that secret deals aren't an issue.

DJHedgehog wrote: Those other types of cheating can be easily missed by a judge who is playing a game at another table, and are also far easier to detect online where there is a written record of every card drawn and played, and every blood gained or lost.


That's not an issue with the multi-judge system. That's an issue with every game of V:TES that doesn't have a judge watching the table the entire time. Even with a full-time, non-multi-judge, players may make innocent mistakes (no cheating required) by burning 3 pool instead of 4.

That this can happen is entirely unrelated to whether secret deal-making is or isn't likely to cause arguments and problems.
Last edit: 21 Aug 2018 18:39 by jamesatzephyr.

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21 Aug 2018 18:47 #90176 by DJHedgehog

jamesatzephyr wrote:

DJHedgehog wrote: Why does it matter? The game is the same in both formats.


A game with secret deals and shared-but-secret information (e.g. contents of my hand) is not the same as a face-to-face game where those things are prevented from happening.

....That this can happen is entirely unrelated to whether secret deal-making is or isn't likely to cause arguments and problems.


I've played a lot of online VTES, including the most recent league. I have seen zero evidence that would lead me to believe that any secret dealing has taken place.

Could it take place? Sure. If people were motivated to cheat they would have the means to do so through instant messaging or any number of other online channels.

I contest, yet again, that if people wished to collude and cheat the option exists to do so at tournaments. I can think of a bunch of secret ways to communicate that I picked up from other games (like euchre or spades). How you lay your cards on the table or how you hold your cards can be a simple code that most people ignore that could mean any number of things.

My point being that people who want to cheat will find a way to cheat. I don't know why the fear of cheating would be the thing holding back online tournaments but we're ok with that possibility in live play and don't bat an eye.

It's all about risk and reward. The risk is that someone will cheat and impact the rating system? That's not enough risk, in my mind, to dismiss a platform that services a much larger base, is more convenient and allows for greater player inclusion.

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22 Aug 2018 21:45 #90198 by beslin igor

DJHedgehog wrote:

beslin igor wrote: No one has ever asked that the tournament should be official.
Online is one thing,real live is another,these are two different things, and so they need to be understood on this way.


I'm asking that they should be official. I can't see a reason to not allow them to be other than people who don't like when there are changes to "their" game. Literally every time someone talks about any sort of movement or change the same few people pop up to say why it shouldn't happen.

God forbid we allow people who can't make it to a live tournament to enjoy the competitive side of the game over the internet.

"People can cheat online!"

I believe that with the current multi-judge system, it's as easy to cheat in a live game as it is online. At least online it keeps a record of all card plays and pool changes so you can literally trace everything that happens in a game.

Ask yourself these two questions and respond back here: What can online tournaments do to benefit this game? What do online tournaments do that would be a detriment to the game?


you said:God forbid we allow people who can't make it to a live tournament to enjoy the competitive side of the game over the internet. where is these people???
as i said i organize 5 online tournaments starting from december 2015. until now, I'll show you how many participants were on those tournaments:19,15,11,12,15,so maximum 19,whu not be 30 or more? is world tournaments,so play people from all over the world.
people be informed for tournaments,here in vekn forum,facebook groups,skype group,private skype,facebook and email mesage,but much people dont like to play online tournaments,more said is beter play frendly games.
I'm not able to play a real-life tournament so I organized online tournaments.
I plan to organize again just waiting a good moment, but I can not ask that vekn recognize these tournaments as official.
about you two questions: 1)Online tournaments can help to VTES game be more popular in world 2)online tournaments cannot make detriment for VTES game but my main plan is that they play for fun,and i repeat cant be same as tournament in real live. We maybe need to have some special ranking for online tournaments but I'm not the person who decides about it.

If you want to play online tournaments, support me when I organize the next one and play with us, invite your friends to be ours as much as possible!
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