Does Catatonic Fear + Target Vitals work?

I don't know if that's the right *key* Shockwave... (woohoo music pun!)

Pascal wrote:

Remember, only Leather Jacket can save you from Catatonic Fear's damage. Regular combat cards can't, as they are only usable in combat, and Catatonic Fear's damage happens after combat has ended.

As well as Surge, which Reyda mentions, Nephandus's special also works. [LSJ 20080630]

Shockwave wrote:

(The two cards were worded differently, but actually inflict the damage in the same way, afaik.)

Ankha wrote:

I have a doubt about this.
Catatonic Fear: the damage is inflicted by the vampire playing it.
Loving Agony: the damage is "environmental".

Target Vitals work for both (since both strikes inflict damage) but the source of the damage is not the same.

I have a different doubt about this. It seems to me there may be a slightly different timing window for CF and LA.

CF "inflict(s) 1 damage...once combat ends." This timing window has been ruled to be outside of combat so you can't play damage prevention combat cards. By the same logic, you couldn't play Taste of Vitae afterwards either since combat has ended and no combat cards can be played.

LA reads "combat ends and the opposing minion takes 1 damage." To me that implies those effects are applied simultaneously. If this is true, you can play end of round effects after LA, such as Taste of Vitae. IIRC, you can play Taste of Vitae after S:CE because it is still an end of round card (hand strike, additional strike(s), majesty/earth meld, taste), or even Disarm by the same reasoning.

But, if LA damage can be Tasted, then it should be preventable too, right? Combat cards can still be played, so any time damage is inflicted, combat cards which prevent damage should be eligible.

Any additional clarifications are welcome since I expect to see this situation with both CF and LA in tournaments this weekend. Thanks.

Name: Catatonic Fear
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Presence

 Strike: combat ends.

 As above, and inflict 1 damage to the opposing minion once combat ends if the range is close.



Name: Loving Agony

Cardtype: Combat

Cost: 1 blood

Discipline: Valeren/Animalism

Only usable at close range.

[ani] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage.

[val] Strike: combat ends and the opposing minion takes 1 damage.

[VAL] As [val] above, and this vampire may burn 1 blood to untap before combat ends.

Aim. Play when choosing a strike.
If any damage from this strike is successfully inflicted on the opposing minion, he or she takes an additional 2 damage from this strike, and he or she cannot press this round. The opposing minion may discard two combat cards to cancel this card. A minion may play only one aim each strike.

Once/when the combat ends cards are after the strike resolution phase...actually after the entire combat is over...so can't be healed in the regular manner... I believe leather jacket and maybe blood tears of kephran...nope just checked says in combat...

GL in tournie

Ankha wrote:

Jeff wrote:

I have a different doubt about this. It seems to me there may be a slightly different timing window for CF and LA.

CF "inflict(s) 1 damage...once combat ends." This timing window has been ruled to be outside of combat so you can't play damage prevention combat cards. By the same logic, you couldn't play Taste of Vitae afterwards either since combat has ended and no combat cards can be played.

LA reads "combat ends and the opposing minion takes 1 damage." To me that implies those effects are applied simultaneously. If this is true, you can play end of round effects after LA, such as Taste of Vitae. IIRC, you can play Taste of Vitae after S:CE because it is still an end of round card (hand strike, additional strike(s), majesty/earth meld, taste), or even Disarm by the same reasoning.

No, damage is done after combat.

groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/PMfeHfvc7ys/dT5XN0_6L4EJ

Correct. See also General Rulings: Combat : "If the strike does something in addition to ending combat, that something takes place just after the combat ends. [RTR 19970630] " (soon to be updated with "something {else than untapping}"

What is the reason for that general ruling since there is always and end of round phase? Or to say it differently: when that ruling was made in 1997, could you play a Taste of Vitae after a combat ends, and were people aware of it? Obviously, the early designers were not comfortable with combat stuff happening after a combat ends. That's how we got Psyche!, the combat card played outside of combat. Since you decided to fix Psyche!, I would find it logical to fix that ruling as well.

Pascal wrote:

Correct. See also General Rulings: Combat : "If the strike does something in addition to ending combat, that something takes place just after the combat ends. [RTR 19970630] " (soon to be updated with "something {else than untapping}"

Thanks for this. Pascal has the toughest job on the IC and does it admirably.

Non-existant user wrote:

What is the reason for that general ruling since there is always and end of round phase?

There were differences between various CCGs on this sort of thing. As I recall, Magic had disputes about: Is "end of turn" a specific step after all the other phases of a turn (which might be lost if you jump out of the normal order)? Or is it whenever the turn ends (if something aborts it prematurely)?

It had to be resolved one way or the other, I guess.

LSJ appears to have generally preferred not imbuing words with magical meaning, if not necessary. (What you think is necessary and what he thought was necessary may differ, of course.) So the end of a turn is whenever the turn ends. The end of a round is whenever a round ends.

Non-existant user wrote:

Or to say it differently: when that ruling was made in 1997, could you play a Taste of Vitae after a combat ends, and were people aware of it?

No, because Taste of Vitae wasn't played at the end of the round. It was played "after strike resolution", which you'd just "interrupted" with Majesty. [LSJ 19980113] (Note that the reference to the end of round in that ruling is talking about when Drawing out the Beast did its damage - during the Press step, by Sabbat text - not the general timing of Taste of Vitae per se.)

ToV's card text changed on this point in Camarilla Edition. (Looking at the scans on vtes.pl and web.archive.org/web/20070102210459/http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/migration.html )