Self contested city titles

What I thought it was weird that LSJ said that the vampire who was going to keep the title still had to pay a blood.

Note that while one yields, the other would have to also yield unless he or she paid a blood to contest. If one contests and the other yields, then the one who didn't yield still won't get the title back until the *next* untap phase (not the current one).

That makes no sense. You can choose to contest or not to contest a title in any order during your untap phase according to the rulebook. Heck, the choice to contest or not to contest can even come after other untap effects, such as using a Vessel. (I think my playgroup has told me that contests have to resolved immediately after untapping, but that's not the case.)

The rulebook doesn't seem to allow a vampire to contest a title that is no longer contested. LSJ's ruling contradicts the rulebook by saying, essentially, that the resolution of multiple contests happen at the same time during the untap phase.

Bad LSJ ruling!

Because LSJ probably intended for all costs to be paid first. Since you are the same controller of both vamps, and they both share the same untap phase, then that would mean the vamp which doesn't yield the title would still have to pay the cost of the blood, or yields if said vamp doesn't have blood.

I'm pretty okay with that ruling of LSJ actually.

Sure, it makes sense - unless you read the rulebook.

4. Untap Phase
You start your turn with your untap phase. At the beginning of your untap phase, you must untap all of your cards... Any cards or effects that require or allow you to do something during your untap phase take effect after you have untapped your cards. You may choose the order in which these effects take place. Along with effects generated by cards, there are other effects that are resolved during the untap phase:
...
• For each card and title you are contesting, you must choose to yield or to pay to contest it (see below).

4.2. Contested Titles
… If more than one vampire in play claims the same title, then the title is contested. While the title is being contested, the vampires involved in the contest are treated as if they have no title, but they remain controlled and may act and block as normal.

The cost to contest a title is one blood, which is paid by the vampire during each of his untap phases. Instead of paying the cost to contest the title, the vampire may choose to yield the title (or may be forced to yield, if he has no blood to pay). … If all other vampires contesting a title with your vampire have yielded the contest, then your vampire acquires the title during your next untap phase, ending the contest.

Notice that a title is only contested when more than one vampire in play claims the same title. If a vampire chooses to yield the title, he no longer claims the title. If no other vampire claims the title, it is no longer contested. According to the last line under 4.0 above, you would not have to choose to yield or contest if there is no contested title. Section 4.0 clearly states that choosing to contest or yield any card is an effect that is ordered in the untap phase with other effects.

That means you should be able to:

1. Pay the contest for the first's title and then yield the second's title later,
2. Pay to contest both vampires' title in any order,
3. Or yield the first's title and then the second no longer has anything to contest. In your next untap phase, according to the rule, the second vampire acquires the title.

AaronC wrote:

The rulebook doesn't seem to allow a vampire to contest a title that is no longer contested.

It's still contested.

In the non-self-contest situation, that happens all the time. Vampire A has a title, which is contested with Vampire B, controlled by different Methuselahs. Vampire A yields the title. Vampire B's title is still contested, until Vampire B's controller's next untap phase. Vampire B can't make use of the title at all - if the title was a Prince, Vampire B still can't cast votes, still can't play Second Tradition, and still can't be the target of a Blood Siege.

In the rulebook, you only un-contest a card or a title once there are no other Methuselahs/vampires claiming a hold on it, and then during your next untap phase. You still have a contested title to pay for in III.A.3 (Complete Rules Reference).


Back when you could self-contest unique cards, the same thing applied. (Typically vampires, because you wanted to get a 'better' copy of the vampire out - less damaged, less in torpor, or something.)

[LSJ 20000202]

LSJ wrote:

> Basic formula for contested unique locations, equipment, vamps, etc is
> Turn 1: Bring out second copy, lose use of both copies.
> Turn 2: Pay contestation for one, yield the other during untap.
> Turn 3: Receive use of unyielded copy at beginning of untap.

Correct.

AaronC wrote:

If all other vampires contesting a title with your vampire have yielded the contest, then your vampire acquires the title during your next untap phase, ending the contest.

Notice that a title is only contested when more than one vampire in play claims the same title.

The quote you provided tells us that the contest ends when the one remaining vampire receives it back. For some period of time (between the other vampire yielding it, typically on another Methuselah's turn), the title remains contested.

Two vampires claiming the same title starts the contest. But the one remaining vampire still has a contested title, up until they're given it back.

AaronC wrote:

If a vampire chooses to yield the title, he no longer claims the title. If no other vampire claims the title, it is no longer contested.

No, that is expressly the reverse of what the rules state - you have to wait to get a contested title, or a contested card, back.

AaronC wrote:

3. Or yield the first's title and then the second no longer has anything to contest.

No, the title is still contested, because the contest hasn't ended.

AaronC wrote:

Sure, it makes sense - unless you read the rulebook.

4.2. Contested Titles
… If all other vampires contesting a title with your vampire have yielded the contest, then your vampire acquires the title during your next untap phase, ending the contest.

Notice that a title is only contested when more than one vampire in play claims the same title. If a vampire chooses to yield the title, he no longer claims the title. If no other vampire claims the title, it is no longer contested.

The contest does not end when all other vampires yield. The contest only ends, as described in the rulebook, during your next untap phase, not during the untap phase when decisions about yielding or contesting were made.