Is Tracker's Mark playable by a vampire going to torpor?

AaronC wrote:

A minion in torpor doesn't end combat. It makes combat go to the "round ends" phase, followed by the "combat ends" phase. I highly recommend reading the Complete Rules Reference on this site. If combat was over right when a minion went to torpor, the opposing minion would have no opportunity to play Taste of Vitae. The opposing minion who plays Taste of Vitae does so during combat but while the opposing minion is in torpor.

LSJ's ruling above indicates that a vampire in torpor may play Street Cred. Street Cred isn't played "while going to torpor". It's played during the "round ends" phase of combat.

I disagre on your point. There clearly CAN'T be a combat with a non ready minion. And if you read LSJ ruling above it doesn't say anything about playibg street cred in torpor but "going to torpor wich is not the same. Likewise, if you read Amaranth/decapitate, nothing is said about playing it against a vampire in torpor but "going to". So IMO, no combat cards can be play in torpor.

Timo wrote:

I disagre on your point. There clearly CAN'T be a combat with a non ready minion. And if you read LSJ ruling above it doesn't say anything about playibg street cred in torpor but "going to torpor wich is not the same.

This is arguable. I can't think, off the top of my head, of anything that matters whether you model it as "in the process of going to torpor and combat is ending while doing so" or "in torpor so combat is ending". There's probably some corner case somewhere (or some whacking great obvious thing I'm overlooking).

Possibly it would matter if - for example - Fame was around. Am I already in torpor (so I've burned pool), or am I just on my way to torpor? For example, if I have 4 pool left, a Fame on my vampire, and he's going to torpor, can I spitefully play my Dark Influences (2 pool) on you before I lose the three pool to Fame? (Assume I'm in a lost position because you can obviously bleed me out if not, and so can kill myself as I choose.) Not sure.

Timo wrote:

Likewise, if you read Amaranth/decapitate, nothing is said about playing it against a vampire in torpor but "going to". So IMO, no combat cards can be play in torpor.

However, this is actually incorrect. Torpored vampires are prevented from entering combat (which obviously limits your options a lot), but there is no general prohibition on them playing combat cards. This is important for cards like Infection and Martyr's Resilience.

[LSJ 20031013]

LSJ wrote:

Barring explicit card text, torpored vampires cannot:

1) Take any action except "leave torpor".
2) Block.
3) Play action modifiers when another minion is acting.
4) Play reaction cards.
5) Enter combat.
6) Cast votes.

Barring explicit card text, torpored vampires can:

1) Untap during the untap phase.
2) Take the "leave torpor" action.
3) Play action modifiers when acting.
4) Play combat cards that are playable by non-combatants.
5) Be targets of actions/effects (including damaging effects).

I was looking for references proving my point (that combat was necessarily ended if both combattant are no longer ready).

And I found this :
groups.google.com/forum/m/?hl=fr#!msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/46kydojRGFI/f3sD-qSKiuAJ

Proving me wrong by saying you can play taste of vitae after an amaranth (and after a decapitate). So clearly combat is not ended by an opposant being no longer ready.

And so the question stands : is it possible to play tracker's mark-like cards when allready in torpor (eg after losing 3 pool due to a fame).
Please note that LDJ list quoted above state specifically combat card playable by a non combattant.

Timo wrote:

And so the question stands : is it possible to play tracker's mark-like cards when allready in torpor (eg after losing 3 pool due to a fame).

Why do you think the Street Cred ruling isn't valid here? Burning blood due to damage is before "end of round", and since Street Cred is playable, why do you have doubts about Tracker's Mark?

Technically the question about Street Cred referred to a vampire "going to torpor", so it is not exactly the same thing.

My logic to this question is pretty simple:
Vampire A is in combat: She can play combat cards.
Vampire A is in torpor: Nothing says that she cannot play combat cards.
Vampire A is in torpor and in combat: She can play combat cards.

However, I did find this line in the rulebook:

Whatever caused the combat, it is important to remember that only ready minions can participate in combat and that your minions cannot enter combat with any of your other minions.

The problem is that we don't have a definition for "participate". If "participate" means "play cards", then this logic falls apart. LSJ has ruled that at least some vampires in torpor can play combat cards, so it doesn't seem that "participate" means "play cards".

Since the second clause of the quoted sentence from the rulebook talks about legal targets for rush actions, I infer that "participate" here means "cannot be a target for any effect that would make it begin combat with another minion" (such as any rush action or Taunt the Caged Beast).

AaronC wrote:

Technically the question about Street Cred referred to a vampire "going to torpor", so it is not exactly the same thing.

Exactly what I wanted to point.

For the rest, I will not be sure without a clear ruling because everything we say now is basically what we think and not what we know.