Can you oust yourself by accidentally playing a card with a pool cost that would kill you?

jamesatzephyr wrote:

AaronC wrote:

LSJ's philosophy seemed to be that if a player made an egregious, seemingly inadvertent, and critically self-damaging error, the judge should find some reason from the rule book to let the player rewind.

No, as described in that thread, if the player doesn't announce an effect, that's a misplay and you should rewind (if rewinding is possible) and announce it properly.

[LSJ 20090304]

LSJ wrote:

I'm saying that the action needs to be fully declared and properly declared. If
the player played the Razor with a zero cost, that's a misplay.

And misplays are corrected when detected.

The purpose of this is not to protect the announcing player for him/herself. It's to make sure that effects get announced appropriately.

I don't you who you are, but I do know from what you've preiously admitted that you don't play regularly.

Hmm, I think I'll start a poll: how many players announce that their Govern the Unaligned costs 1 blood every time they play it?

If I "forget" to announce the cost of my GtU, and then I see someone's going to block, do I get to rewind all the way back? I mean, the action was improperly announced, which goes against the rules.

If I get to rewind my Aaron's Feeding Razor because I see it's going to oust me and I see that no one is going to block it, I should be able to rewind all my actions that I announce improperly.

Lots of people in that thread righfully jumped on LSJ's case for making that pronouncement. Of course, he backtracked and said that if someone is just "forgetting" things to gain an advantage then they shouldn't get to do so. That's "gaming the system" and that shouldn't be rewarded, he said. It requires judgment on the part of the judge, but like Lonkka mentioned, it's not very clear when someone is forgetting or pretending to forget. I also wondered how often LSJ actually played games.

Following the rules to the "T" is ponderous and no one that I know does so. It would be great to have clearer, more practical and official guidelines about what must be or not announced, but we don't. If we did, then some hapless players might be punished for making stupid mistakes, and that is just too unfriendly of an atmosphere.

AaronC wrote:

I don't you who you are,

Sigh. You were told to stop with this. The thread was locked. Get over it.

Personal boundaries. Learn you some.

AaronC wrote:

but I do know from what you've preiously admitted that you don't play regularly.

And this has precisely zip to do with anything. The ruling LSJ gave was the ruling LSJ gave, whether or not I play 3000 times a day, or whether I played once in 1994.

If you don't like the ruling, appeal to Pascal to overturn it. Stop making creepy personal attacks on me because you don't like official rulings that were made by someone else, and which I happen to: a) know and b) quote.

The ruling is the ruling, whether you like it or not, whether I like ir or not.

AaronC wrote:

If I "forget" to announce the cost of my GtU, and then I see someone's going to block, do I get to rewind all the way back?

No. Intentionally misannouncing an effect so that you can roll back with additional information would clearly be cheating.

Please don't encourage cheating in V:TES.

Malachy wrote:

So, Pascal, can you ferry us to conclusion?

Here's a very similar situation in a ruling from LSJ:

[LSJ 20011024]

LSJ wrote:

Joshua Duffin wrote:
> mere play errors: in fact there is no rule against making
> foolish decisions, even if they "give away" a VP to another
> Methuselah, right? (Though if you were actually doing it
> intentionally rather than foolishly, it'd violate the "playing
> to win" tournament rule.)
Right.

> That does make sense. And the other players don't have the
> authority to waive penalties (or allow "takebacks") for
> either type of offense, right?
Right.

And if you look at the setup that Josh Duffin gives as context for his question (which LSJ slightly snipped):

Josh wrote:

OK, I must have misremembered the previous discussion. I
thought you (or Chairman Goudie?) had said that a player who,
for example, announced the play of a Hunting Ground while not
realizing she was at 2 pool, should be allowed to take back
that play because it would oust her. As you said, though,
this seems to confuse being required to "play to win" with
mere play errors: in fact there is no rule against making
foolish decisions, even if they "give away" a VP to another
Methuselah, right? (Though if you were actually doing it
intentionally rather than foolishly, it'd violate the "playing
to win" tournament rule.)

Which is what LSJ replies to.

So:
Announce a legal card play that would oust you.
- If it's bad play, leave it alone.
- If it's violating play-to-win, correct it.

just do what i do: be very vague when announcing stuff so you can lawyer your way into backtracking anything

just kidding, i don't really do that........ in tournaments

AaronC wrote:

Hmm, I think I'll start a poll: how many players announce that their Govern the Unaligned costs 1 blood every time they play it?

I regularily place a counter from my vampire to the played card when I play a card that has a cost. Just to avoid the whether the cost was paid or not later on.



And Aaron please, stop the silly axegrinding with James -the only thing it does is making you look like you're wearing an asshat... (and probably pissing off a VERY helpful and VERY knowledgeable guy who does a wonderfulful job of filling in for Pasqual in the Rules questions)