- Forum
- V:TES Discussion
- Rules Questions
- Can you oust yourself by accidentally playing a card with a pool cost that would kill you?
Can you oust yourself by accidentally playing a card with a pool cost that would kill you?
21 Dec 2013 10:51 #57938
by Malachy
NC of Hungary
///
Can you oust yourself by accidentally playing a card with a pool cost that would kill you? was created by Malachy
Greets!
The story was the following... 2 players left, A and B.
A has 2 pool, B's pool is irrelevant.
Player A forgets to utalize Vessel, and plays a master card that costs 2 pool. Realizing the mistake player A backs out almost immediately, but player B insists on the thesis, that you can kill yourself accidentally and that is what player A just did.
Is player B's argument valid?
The story was the following... 2 players left, A and B.
A has 2 pool, B's pool is irrelevant.
Player A forgets to utalize Vessel, and plays a master card that costs 2 pool. Realizing the mistake player A backs out almost immediately, but player B insists on the thesis, that you can kill yourself accidentally and that is what player A just did.
Is player B's argument valid?
NC of Hungary
///
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
21 Dec 2013 12:07 #57939
by jozxyqk
Replied by jozxyqk on topic Re: Can you oust yourself by accidentally playing a card with a pool cost that would kill you?
If it was in casual play, then the takeback should have been allowed, and player B is a dick.
If it was in a tournament, and the card play was fully announced, then technically player A has just ousted himself.
If it was in a tournament, and the card play was fully announced, then technically player A has just ousted himself.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Dorrinal
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
21 Dec 2013 14:11 #57940
by hodgestar
Replied by hodgestar on topic Re: Can you oust yourself by accidentally playing a card with a pool cost that would kill you?
My take on this:
In tournament play if A had any chance of gaining additional VPs ousting herself in this fashion would, I think, be illegal by the play to win rule.
In tournament play if A mis-announced any card (e.g. by not announcing the cost or by announcing the incorrect cost) the play would have to be rewound (and a judge called over if anyone felt additional tweaks to the game state were needed to effect a fair rewind).
In tournament play if A had any chance of gaining additional VPs ousting herself in this fashion would, I think, be illegal by the play to win rule.
In tournament play if A mis-announced any card (e.g. by not announcing the cost or by announcing the incorrect cost) the play would have to be rewound (and a judge called over if anyone felt additional tweaks to the game state were needed to effect a fair rewind).
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
21 Dec 2013 14:19 #57941
by ReverendRevolver
Replied by ReverendRevolver on topic Re: Can you oust yourself by accidentally playing a card with a pool cost that would kill you?
Im not sure on that. In a tournament, its not a legal move unless there is arguably, and to somw point provably, no chance of not dying or getting any vps. You MUST play to win. So, maybe its treated just as acxidentally playimg aire of elation with marcellous(which ive done, in a tournament, cought a turn later and had the ousted guy and the person whos turn it was backtrack. ) its a dead card, revery to things before it was played. Since it was attwmpted to be played, we can be dicks and decide the player was done with his untap, so no vessel for him, but hes alive.
Also note that if you are tapped out/hav no ready minions/cant block or bounce, it IS legal to play a card to self oist, as you arw then playing to optimize your 0 vps however you so choose. So, tapped or torped out, no way to bounce, you ask the table if anyone has a boon for the bleed or an eagles sight, etc. No takers. Lutz or stanislava or whoever is bleeding you for 4, and you are at 4 pool with a famous vamp in torpor. You can play archn investigation and die to fame. Or, if you are bled for 4 and at 3 pool, say by queen ann and a onditioning, you can still archon investigation her, as you may optimize your 0 vps however you want.
Also note that if you are tapped out/hav no ready minions/cant block or bounce, it IS legal to play a card to self oist, as you arw then playing to optimize your 0 vps however you so choose. So, tapped or torped out, no way to bounce, you ask the table if anyone has a boon for the bleed or an eagles sight, etc. No takers. Lutz or stanislava or whoever is bleeding you for 4, and you are at 4 pool with a famous vamp in torpor. You can play archn investigation and die to fame. Or, if you are bled for 4 and at 3 pool, say by queen ann and a onditioning, you can still archon investigation her, as you may optimize your 0 vps however you want.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- ReverendRevolver
-
- Offline
- Antediluvian
-
Less
More
- Posts: 2436
- Thank you received: 407
21 Dec 2013 14:25 - 21 Dec 2013 14:26 #57942
by Xaddam
In any reasonable interpretation of the play-to-win rule there must be room for mistakes. If you don't allow mistakes a judge would have to correct obvious mistakes. And what is obvious? How do you draw that line? We can't very well enforce a rule where everyone has to play perfectly.
One line of reasoning would be to simply allow mistakes, and in that case the described play is legal.
Adam Esbjörnsson,
Prince of Örebro
Replied by Xaddam on topic Re: Can you oust yourself by accidentally playing a card with a pool cost that would kill you?
This raises an interesting discussion.I'm not sure on that. In a tournament, its not a legal move unless there is arguably, and to somw point provably, no chance of not dying or getting any vps. You MUST play to win.
In any reasonable interpretation of the play-to-win rule there must be room for mistakes. If you don't allow mistakes a judge would have to correct obvious mistakes. And what is obvious? How do you draw that line? We can't very well enforce a rule where everyone has to play perfectly.
One line of reasoning would be to simply allow mistakes, and in that case the described play is legal.
Adam Esbjörnsson,
Prince of Örebro
Last edit: 21 Dec 2013 14:26 by Xaddam.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Robert Goudie, Vlad
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
21 Dec 2013 14:27 - 21 Dec 2013 14:28 #57943
by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Can you oust yourself by accidentally playing a card with a pool cost that would kill you?
Playing to win isn't contradictory with making mistakes.
If player A plays accidentally a card that ousts him, it's a mistake, and there's no reason why it should be rollbacked.
Rollback should only be applied to technical errors (a card that can't be played, a block that was considered successful erroneously...)
Otherwise, consider the situation: player A is at 2 pool and in duel with B that has a vampire that bleeds for 2. A tap all his vampires, has no wake card in hand and forget to use his Metro Underground to untap one of his vampires. B bleed for 2 and ousts him (no cards played).
Why not rollback this situation?
You could continue rollbacking even further. What is the limit then?
If player A plays accidentally a card that ousts him, it's a mistake, and there's no reason why it should be rollbacked.
Rollback should only be applied to technical errors (a card that can't be played, a block that was considered successful erroneously...)
Otherwise, consider the situation: player A is at 2 pool and in duel with B that has a vampire that bleeds for 2. A tap all his vampires, has no wake card in hand and forget to use his Metro Underground to untap one of his vampires. B bleed for 2 and ousts him (no cards played).
Why not rollback this situation?
You could continue rollbacking even further. What is the limit then?
Last edit: 21 Dec 2013 14:28 by Ankha.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Forum
- V:TES Discussion
- Rules Questions
- Can you oust yourself by accidentally playing a card with a pool cost that would kill you?
Time to create page: 0.167 seconds
- You are here:
-
Home
-
Forum
-
V:TES Discussion
-
Rules Questions
- Can you oust yourself by accidentally playing a card with a pool cost that would kill you?