Heidelberg Timing

The text of Heidelberg reads

Tap to move blood, equipment cards and/or retainers between any two ready vampires you control. (You choose the amount of blood you move and which cards you transfer.) Cannot be used during an action.

I don't understand how you can combo it with Spirit Marionette because that card reads

+1 stealth action. Take control of a ready untapped minion until the end of the next action. That minion must bleed your prey unless he or she must hunt.

Since you control him until the end of the action, I don't see where Heidelberg can be used. But people have been doing it forever, so who am I to stop them.

What about blood hunts. If I borrow a vamp and have him commit diablerie, can move all the blood and gear off of him before he dies in the referendum? The referendum is not an action, so it seems like there is a window.

Marionette is an action.

Then you have chump dude A

Chump dude A then is a mandatory bleed action.

So........

When you control chump dude A, but before he bleeds, steal his shit.

Diablery, im thinking eat em, action finishes, blood hunt is called by the game. So i think its seperate.

prestonp wrote:

Since you control him until the end of the action, I don't see where Heidelberg can be used. But people have been doing it forever, so who am I to stop them.

You can use it before the action. There's a mandatory "between actions" phase.

So, for example:

ACTION: I play Spirit Marionette to steal B.
BETWEEN ACTIONS: I tap Heidelberg to take all B's stuff.
ACTION: I bleed (or hunt) with B, or some other mandatory action.


The fact that there's a phase there also means that this can happen:

ACTION
Me, acting: I bleed you with some vampire.
You: I block with Isabel de Leon, who has a Sport Bike and Mr Winthrop on her.
The block happens, combat occurs, and all that stuff.
BETWEEN ACTIONS:
(Me: I implicitly pass, having nothing to do.)
You: I tap my Heidelberg, to move Sport Bike and Mr Winthrop from Isabel to Colin Flynn.
ACTION
Me: I declare some action.

And I (the acting Methuselah) can't skip that "between actions" phase, so you always have that chance.

[LSJ 20090123]

LSJ wrote:

A's turn.
Minion phase.
Time to declare an action.
A has the impulse.
A has minion W take an action.
...
Action resolves.

Between-action (Heidelberg)
A has the impulse.
A passes. All pass.

Time to declare an action.
A has the impulse.
(repeat until A passes the opportunity to declare the next action).

...
Time to declare an action.
A has the impulse.
A passes.
B has the impulse.
B has minion X take an action.
...
Action resolves.
Between-action (Heidelberg)
A has the impulse.
A passes. All pass.

Time to declare an action.
A has the impulse.
(repeat until A passes the opportunity to declare the next action).

And so on until "all pass", ending A's minion phase.

And (same thread):

[LSJ 20090203]

LSJ wrote:

You're overlooking the fact that declaring an action is, by definition, not a
between-actions effect.

So A can't declare an action in the "between-actions" phase (in an attempt to
keep B from using Heidelberg Castle, for example).

And B can't tap the Cog to declare an action in the "between-actions" phase.

Tapping the Cog can only be done when it's time to declare an action.
Similarly declaring an action via the Madness Network can only be done when it's
time to declare an action.

So you can not use Heidelberg after Spirit Marionette. What about during a BH referendum?

Nope. The blood hunt is (paradoxically) held "outside the action" but as part of its resolution, meaning the diablerie action is not yet finished.

And since you're still resolving an action, you cannot transfer via Heidleburg.

www.vekn.net/forum/6-rules-questions/11619-trophy-diablerie

It's unfortunate to note that the separation of 6.5.5 and 6.5.6 of the rulebook can be misleading, especially the part in 6.5.6 about the bloodhunt not being an action, which read alone would imply that Heidleburg is OK...instead it is meant to imply that action modifiers and reactions cannot be applied to the referendum. Hence, Pascal's use of the language "outside the action" - which seems to more accurate the situation.

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

...the part in 6.5.6 about the bloodhunt not being an action...is meant to imply that action modifiers and reactions cannot be applied to the referendum. Hence, Pascal's use of the language "outside the action" - which seems to more accurate the situation.

Perhaps "as a byproduct of the action" may be more to the meaning. Point is that it may not be appropriate to play action modifiers or reactions for votes in whatever action led to the blood hunt (e.g. Bum's Rush, Agg-poke, Amaranth), so they can't be used in the referendum.