Mirror Walk v. Obedience

Ankha wrote:

I think you give it too much importance, as the "before combat occurs" has no real meaning here. It would otherwise mean that "tapping for a successful block" happens "before combat occurs", which is not the case (they are simultaneous per the Obedience ruling).

Why? It just says when he has the option to burn the blood - before combat occurs. After the action, we're no longer in that window to do that.

Ankha wrote:

No, per your previous link:

> Your answer sounds like there is no such division - as if you skipped
> from a2 to b2. Let me ask this question, it will help me get things
> clear:
> If my acting Giovanni is blocked by a Camarilla vampire, can I play
> Promise of 1528 without burning 1 blood to the blocking vampire's
> Banshee Ironwail?
You could play it before burning the blood. But you'd still burn the blood (just
like the blocking Camarilla vampire would still tap).

So even if you play Change of Target, you still have the Aching Beauty effect to resolve. You can order them the way you want, though.

A difference here is that Banshee Ironwail isn't phrased as an optional effect, but Lucas is - much like optionally playing a card in the same timing window is an optional effect. So it's potentially an effect that must be ordered into the sequence (akin to a pre-existing Weather Control vs combat ends).

this is the closest comparison I can find...

groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/PyCEvjx5Oq8/e036rmxAzyMJ

> Can she untap (using Sowing Dissension's ability) before Mirror Walk
> ends the action ?

No. When it is blocked, the action ends.

though it's not exactly the same, but it suggests an existing optional effect comes in too late after mirror walk resolves, even if during the same window. so I would say Lucas's ability can not be used here.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Lucas Halton is not a reaction but an effect that triggers off a condition.

So's Aching Beauty, which is also given as an example of an effect in "a1".

It's also implied in [LSJ 20090731] that Change of Target can pre-empt the Aching Beauty pool damage. (Also a conversation with Pascal.)

LSJ wrote:

> v/ My Helena adv with Aching Beauty attempts a bleed action. My prey
> on 1 pool attempts to block. I decline to play stealth, can I play
> Change of Target on this action?
> Aching Beauty
> Put this card on a Toreador. If this Toreador is blocked, the
> controller of the blocking minion burns 1 pool (before combat occurs,
> if any).

Yes.

I would have expected "Yes (but still takes the pool damage)" if it went any other way.

you're taking this particular ruling very much out of context! it's discussing the hypothetical effects of Last Stand on the action structure. change of target never pre-empts aching beauty. however, I'm not entirely sure if mirror walk does or not, since nobody ever asked LSJ about that.

Not only was the block declared, but it was successful.
Change of Target can only be played after a successful block.
By that time, the blocker's controller will have lost a pool
to Aching Beauty, and Change of Target offers no compensation
for that.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Ankha wrote:

I think you give it too much importance, as the "before combat occurs" has no real meaning here. It would otherwise mean that "tapping for a successful block" happens "before combat occurs", which is not the case (they are simultaneous per the Obedience ruling).

Why? It just says when he has the option to burn the blood - before combat occurs. After the action, we're no longer in that window to do that.

Where is the timing window for a non-existent combat? It has not occurred, so it could be before or after the combat.

Lets put Lucas Halton's text in here... in full.
Lucas Halton
Clan: Tremere (group 3)
Capacity: 10
Disciplines: AUS CEL DOM THA qui
Camarilla Prince of Houston: Once each turn, when Lucas blocks an action, he may burn a blood instead of tapping for the successful block (before combat occurs).


The conditions on Lucas' ability are: During X (Once each turn), if Condition A (Lucas blocks an action), then Cost to do Y.

If Lucas has blocked (which is required by the Change of Target and Mirror Walk) then he has met the condition. If his ability has not been used before this turn, then he meets the "During X Do Y" structure. There seems to be no reason why he could not burn a blood intead of tapping for the successful block, since the text on Mirror Walk could not trigger without Lucas meeting the requirements of his effect.


@James:
How would Freak Drive@[FOR] and Mirror Walk work then? If the Mirror Walk ends as soon as the block occurs and stops any further part of the action, then Freak Drive @ [FOR] is unplayable after Mirror Walk. Is this the case based on current rulings?

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Freak Drive @ [FOR] is unplayable after Mirror Walk. Is this the case based on current rulings?

Correct; Freakdrive is not playable after a blocked action when Mirror Walk has been played at superior — this is one of the downsides of Mirror Walk and why at times it can be better to play it at inferior. The same applies to Kiss of Ra (which also ends the action).