Outside the hour glass, rotschreck and disarm

beslin wrote:

To check if I understood correctly.
Therefore, the trujah against whom it is played Rötschreck,him can play Disarm and Decapitate,so him burn oposing vampire and then him goes to torpor by Rötschreck text?

Well I'm not at all sure what you are asking here. You might want to rephrase that.

Keep in mind that decapitate and disarm cannot be played by a vampire who is going to torpor or burning(it reads on the card), so only the player who is playing rotschreck can play those cards here.

As far as I know, if you play rotschreck, you can also play decapitate to burn the opposing vampire instead of sending them to torpor, since decapitate doesn't specify when it needs to be played. Only requirement is that opposing minion in combat is going to torpor.

ps. I would love to do a lengthy rant about how these cards should be written, but that would just confuse the topic even further...

Bloodartist wrote:

Keep in mind that decapitate and disarm cannot be played by a vampire who is going to torpor or burning(it reads on the card), so only the player who is playing rotschreck can play those cards here.

As far as I know, if you play rotschreck, you can also play decapitate to burn the opposing vampire instead of sending them to torpor, since decapitate doesn't specify when it needs to be played. Only requirement is that opposing minion in combat is going to torpor.

No, Rotschreck doesn't work like that. Let's take the important parts of the Rotschreck card text.

Three things happen, in order:

1) Put this card on a vampire
2) Combat ends
3) Send the vampire to torpor

When combat ends (step 2), nothing is sending the vampire to torpor. Step 3 hasn't happened yet. That is why if you use an effect like Telepathic Tracking, combat continues and no-one goes to torpor - because step 3 hasn't happened, and doesn't happen when interrupted.

At the point that step 2 is happening - the ending of combat - neither combatant is going to torpor. So both combatants are able to play "end of round" effects, because the round and combat ends, and if that end of round effect is restricted against being played by vampires who are going to torpor, nothing from Rotschreck's card text is sending them to torpor in step 2.

Regarding:

In a situation where as the non-acting player, I play a Claw to declare an aggravated hand strike (and no other relevant cards have been played), then play Rotschreck, I cannot play Decapitate. Why?

2) Combat ends
3) Send the vampire to torpor

Step 2. Combat ends. Now we move on to step 3. Send the vampire to torpor outside of combat. You cannot play Decapitate now because it is a combat card. Combat cards are played in combat, and before you move to step 3, combat has ended.

Bloodartist wrote:

beslin wrote:

To check if I understood correctly.
Therefore, the trujah against whom it is played Rötschreck,him can play Disarm and Decapitate,so him burn oposing vampire and then him goes to torpor by Rötschreck text?

Well I'm not at all sure what you are asking here. You might want to rephrase that.

Sorry, but if you had read the previous posts carefully, you would have known why the question makes sense.

"Combat ends", e. g. the one in Rotschreck, just moves the combat immediately to the "end of a turn of combat" step. So it is still possible to play cards that are played in that step.

Hakuron wrote:

Sorry, but if you had read the previous posts carefully, you would have known why the question makes sense.

Question maybe, but grammar didn't... I honest couldn't figure out what he was trying to say.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

No, Rotschreck doesn't work like that. Let's take the important parts of the Rotschreck card text.

Put this card on a vampire when an opposing minion attempts to inflict aggravated damage on him or her, whether the damage would be successfully inflicted or not. Combat ends. This vampire is tapped and sent to torpor.

Three things happen, in order:

1) Put this card on a vampire
2) Combat ends
3) Send the vampire to torpor

When combat ends (step 2), nothing is sending the vampire to torpor. Step 3 hasn't happened yet. That is why if you use an effect like Telepathic Tracking, combat continues and no-one goes to torpor - because step 3 hasn't happened, and doesn't happen when interrupted.

I am used to things not happening, triggered or conditions being checked until cards have resolved completely (or if their effects have been canceled). Since rotschreck both ends the combat AND sends vampire to torpor within its card text, I find it intuitively hard to understand why something like telepathic tracking would prevent this from happening since you would need to play and resolve it during rotschrecks resolution. Thats not ... right.

Now I may have to yield to your ruling of things, but I want to point out that much (I estimate something like 80%) of all issues, problems and confusion in card rulings in CCG's that are not magic the gathering, arise from trying to do stuff or check conditions DURING a card's resolution. Android netrunner suffers from this very same thing. If cards would always resolve completely and conditions would not be checked until after cards have finished resolving, things would be much simpler to handle, understand and rule. We may not have that option due to VTES card designers getting all these cards messed up, but I just can't resist voicing my frustration whenever (like once every couple weeks) this issue is brought up.

We already have a precedent in VTES about conditions NOT being checked during a cards resolution - playing eternals of sirius at exactly 4 pool. You are not ousted and instead go to 5 pool, because the losing condition (0 pool) is not checked during the cards resolution... There is just so much controversy..

Bloodartist wrote:

Since rotschreck both ends the combat AND sends vampire to torpor within its card text, I find it intuitively hard to understand why something like telepathic tracking would prevent this from happening since you would need to play and resolve it during rotschrecks resolution. Thats not ... right.

It's completely 100% right. It is exactly why Psyche! and Telepathic Tracking work. It's worked this way specifically on Rotschreck since 2002. The fact that combat ends-followed-by-something effects could be interrupted had been established long, long ago with Form of Mist, where if something "sufficiently disruptive" happened, the continue action effect was lost. This principle was formalized into something coherent in the 2002 ruling.

Bloodartist wrote:

If cards would always resolve completely and conditions would not be checked until after cards have finished resolving, things would be much simpler to handle, understand and rule. We may not have that option due to VTES card designers getting all these cards messed up, but I just can't resist voicing my frustration whenever (like once every couple weeks) this issue is brought up.

If you don't understand how a card works, asking in the Rules Questions forum makes sense.

If you want to campaign for cards to change to work like Magic, the Rules Questions forum is not an appropriate place to tell people that cards work the wrong way. Answers in the Rules Questions forum should be about how cards actually work.

Bloodartist wrote:

We already have a precedent in VTES about conditions NOT being checked during a cards resolution - playing eternals of sirius at exactly 4 pool. You are not ousted and instead go to 5 pool, because the losing condition (0 pool) is not checked during the cards resolution... There is just so much controversy..

So? Paying a card and getting pool back from its effect don't oust you. That's how V:TES works. It's pretty simple.

The fact that another card game splits this out differently is just fine for that card game. V:TES isn't that card game.