file Libertas when you atempt to bloock

13 Jan 2019 23:32 #92842 by jamesatzephyr

Lönkka wrote: The effect on action modifiers is a different case.

Blessing of Chaos:
"If this vampire attempts to block, the acting vampire cannot play action modifiers requiring Dementation , Chimerstry, Dominate or Presence. "

If this works as I've been taught in the past (not being able to play those action modifiers after block ATTEMPT) apparently "attempts to block" = "has attempted to block".


Libertas:
"Cards that require Dominate or Presence cost other minions an additional blood while this anarch is acting, attempting to block, or in combat."


So "attempting to block" = "is/would be blocking" (since apparently trying to block but not being able/willing to match intercept will result in unsuccessful block after which the Catch-22 acting minion can ignore Libertas.)


The words you're underlining aren't the significant ones.

Libertas's effect on reactions happens "while this anarch is... attempting to block". Thus it can only happen while there is a block attempt in progress. If I prohibit you from talking while I am shouting, you can resume talking after I stop shouting.

Blessing of Chaos kicks in if you attempt to block. Unlike Libertas's use of "while", this doesn't explicitly limit how long the effect lasts. LSJ ruled/clarified that it persisted for the rest of the action.

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14 Jan 2019 08:52 #92846 by Lönkka
Has there been a ruling/clarification for Libertas (from LSJ)?

The effect while blocking seems to be so very miniscule (four cards half of which ain't basically even ever used).

Hence I think that the "while" implies only to acting. Just that the economics with words got in the way.

Wouldn't be surprised if thos was the intent:
"Cards that require Dominate or Presence cost other minions an additional blood if this anarch attempts to block, is acting, or is in combat."


The overall reasoning behind the "while... attempting to block" is so odd and rather unlike much anything in the game that it makes me feel that the intent certainly can't have been what you suggest. Even if that in close scrutiny is how the card reads ruleswise. Don't you think?

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14 Jan 2019 09:29 - 14 Jan 2019 09:29 #92848 by Ankha
"if A does X" and "while A is doing X" are two distinct things.
You're troubled because X is the same in both cases, and you'd like the rest of the sentence "if" vs "while" to work the same way, but it's not.

I don't say it's a good thing to have closely related effects that are in fact different, but it is hard to avoid.

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Last edit: 14 Jan 2019 09:29 by Ankha.

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14 Jan 2019 10:33 - 14 Jan 2019 10:35 #92851 by Bloodartist

Lönkka wrote: The overall reasoning behind the "while... attempting to block" is so odd and rather unlike much anything in the game that it makes me feel that the intent certainly can't have been what you suggest. Even if that in close scrutiny is how the card reads ruleswise. Don't you think?


I thought the reasoning was to make deflections (and obediences and majesties) cost extra while the libertas-vampire was bleeding. The "attempting to block" was somewhat random addition on top of that.. I'm really struggling to think of meaningful cards that this affects.... I can think of only presences "pay more to block" cards. I mean there ARE cards that it affects, but I think most of them are quite rare.

"Hey, lets put this here just for kicks"

ps. From deckbuilding perspective, notice that libertas is not unique. You can stack those on same vampire. Wanna pay 5 to deflect? :D

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Last edit: 14 Jan 2019 10:35 by Bloodartist.

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14 Jan 2019 22:11 #92864 by jamesatzephyr

Lönkka wrote: Has there been a ruling/clarification for Libertas (from LSJ)?


www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/77292-libertas-when-you-atempt-to-bloock?start=0#92789 includes it, where - when asked if the effect persists to the end of the action after the failed block - LSJ said no.

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14 Jan 2019 22:23 #92866 by jamesatzephyr

Bloodartist wrote: I thought the reasoning was to make deflections (and obediences and majesties) cost extra while the libertas-vampire was bleeding. The "attempting to block" was somewhat random addition on top of that.. I'm really struggling to think of meaningful cards that this affects.... I can think of only presences "pay more to block" cards. I mean there ARE cards that it affects, but I think most of them are quite rare.


Leaving aside "playing any playable card to cycle it to get to something better when something unwanted happens" (e.g. any bleed modifier - Threats, Aire of Elation etc.), the following are pretty decent in the right decks:

- Power of One, for stealth (a very solid card for Anarch Presence, added in the same set)
- Shroud of Absence (a solid card for Obt/Dom, given that it's free stealth)
- True Love's Face (probably not the best card in the world, but if you have a lot of OBF/PRE it's solid enough)

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