file "Sufficiently Mixed"

03 Mar 2019 12:36 - 03 Mar 2019 16:12 #93818 by jamesatzephyr
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic "Sufficiently Mixed"

Ankha wrote: Distinct backs should be equally distributed, with a maximum variation of 10%.
Also, for each distinct back, the type of the front card should also have the same ratio than the whole deck: for instance, you can't have only Jyhad combat cards while the rest of the deck uses a different back. If your deck contains 40% of combat cards, then 40% of the Jyhad cards should be combat cards (+/- 10%).


This is still problematic:

- A Twister deck could have all its burn option cards, which exist in pretty much every card type except Events, have a distinctive back.

- This doesn't explain how to account for dual-type cards. Is a combat/action modifier (e.g. Swallowed by the Night) account for in the percentages of combat cards, action modifier cards, or a separate class of combat/action modifier cards?

- There are at least four easily distinguishable card backs(*): Jyhad (says Jyhad), WotC V:TES (says V:TES and Deckmaster), later/WW V:TES (says V:TES and Deckmaster with a trade mark symbol), and Black Chantry V:TES (doesn't say Deckmaster). So that's 25% of the deck each. Does a 10% variation mean I can go as low as 15% on one back type? In a 60 card deck (which is legal), that's as low as 9 cards for one of those types. If, say, 6 of those 9 are Villein and I have, say, 6 non-blood gain masters with a different back, I have a much better chance of knowing that my next draw is likely to be a Villein.



(*) Not including differences in printing quality / vibrancy, which some players are alert to.
Last edit: 03 Mar 2019 16:12 by jamesatzephyr.
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03 Mar 2019 17:19 - 03 Mar 2019 17:21 #93822 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic "Sufficiently Mixed"

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Ankha wrote: Distinct backs should be equally distributed, with a maximum variation of 10%.
Also, for each distinct back, the type of the front card should also have the same ratio than the whole deck: for instance, you can't have only Jyhad combat cards while the rest of the deck uses a different back. If your deck contains 40% of combat cards, then 40% of the Jyhad cards should be combat cards (+/- 10%).


This is still problematic:

- A Twister deck could have all its burn option cards, which exist in pretty much every card type except Events, have a distinctive back.
- This doesn't explain how to account for dual-type cards. Is a combat/action modifier (e.g. Swallowed by the Night) account for in the percentages of combat cards, action modifier cards, or a separate class of combat/action modifier cards?

- There are at least four easily distinguishable card backs(*): Jyhad (says Jyhad), WotC V:TES (says V:TES and Deckmaster), later/WW V:TES (says V:TES and Deckmaster with a trade mark symbol), and Black Chantry V:TES (doesn't say Deckmaster). So that's 25% of the deck each. Does a 10% variation mean I can go as low as 15% on one back type? In a 60 card deck (which is legal), that's as low as 9 cards for one of those types. If, say, 6 of those 9 are Villein and I have, say, 6 non-blood gain masters with a different back, I have a much better chance of knowing that my next draw is likely to be a Villein.

(*) Not including differences in printing quality / vibrancy, which some players are alert to.

These are general guidelines
"sufficiently mixed" is still left at the discretion of the judge. Anyone who plans to use the rules to cheat should be disqualified of course.

Or use opaque sleeves if you want to avoid any problem.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 03 Mar 2019 17:21 by Ankha.
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03 Mar 2019 17:55 #93824 by jamesatzephyr
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic "Sufficiently Mixed"

Ankha wrote: These are general guidelines


I'm pretty certain that when you state maximums with percentage variations, people will treat those as rules to be followed, not guidelines.

If the situation is that you can follow the specific percentages that have been laid down and still have to argue with a judge about it, then I'm pretty sure the actual answer to the question that has been asked is "Whatever your judge thinks is reasonable", and that any faffing around with percentages is ineffectual window dressing which makes the problem worse by giving people the false belief that they know their deck will be allowed.

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03 Mar 2019 18:32 - 03 Mar 2019 18:35 #93825 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic "Sufficiently Mixed"

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Ankha wrote: These are general guidelines


I'm pretty certain that when you state maximums with percentage variations, people will treat those as rules to be followed, not guidelines.

If the situation is that you can follow the specific percentages that have been laid down and still have to argue with a judge about it, then I'm pretty sure the actual answer to the question that has been asked is "Whatever your judge thinks is reasonable", and that any faffing around with percentages is ineffectual window dressing which makes the problem worse by giving people the false belief that they know their deck will be allowed.

Probably indeed. I'm editing my answer so there will be no confusion.

The reasonable choice would be to avoid mixing backs in fact. Either you play cards from the same edition and there's no issue, or you use opaque sleeves.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 03 Mar 2019 18:35 by Ankha.

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03 Mar 2019 18:34 #93826 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic "Sufficiently Mixed"
Quick question :

Why is it not simply forbidden to come in any tournament with different backs except with opaque sleeves ?

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03 Mar 2019 18:35 #93827 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic "Sufficiently Mixed"

Timo wrote: Quick question :

Why is it not simply forbidden to come in any tournament with different backs except with opaque sleeves ?


You may want to buy a deck and play it without sleeving it.

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Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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