file What exactly is "Block resolution"

29 May 2019 19:53 #95123 by Mewcat
How does block resolution work with claiming the body? If block ends with tapping and entering combat at same time seems it would not work properly. Is this another case of errata needed?

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30 May 2019 06:34 - 30 May 2019 07:54 #95127 by Tadori

Ankha wrote:

Tadori wrote: So looking at this examples. you have sequence of action.

1 play interparts (before [action] happens)
2 action resolution
3.reactions (after [action] happens)

So in our example our action is Block

Its starts with announcing block attempted(you can play interrupts), then we resolve "block" and the combat is the part of block action.When the combat ends Block segment resolves.(you can play reactions cards)


Block attempts are not part of the block resolution.
Announcing the action, playing cards as the action is played, attempting to block etc. are not part of the action resolution.

Tadori wrote: I understand your explanation and its ok. but the wording itself is a little not intuitive

Maybe "Before Block attempt resolution" would be bether. Then you have:

1.Block Action:
1.1 declare block attempt
1.1.1 Play Stealth/Intercept modifiers and card before “block attempt resolution” (action window)
1.2 Block attempt resolution (lock + begin combat)
1.3 combat
1.4 Block action resolution

In VTES, "resolution" means the same as in other games, that is "304.2. When <here action card> resolves, the actions stated in its rules text are followed. Then it’s put into its owner’s graveyard"

The (very) basic summary of an action is:

1/ declare the action and lock the minion
2/ play cards "as the action is announced"
3/ play action modifiers / reaction cards and declare block attempts

If the action is not blocked:
3'/ play more action modifiers / reaction cards
4/ resolve the action successfully ("action resolution")

If the action is blocked:
4/ resolve the action unsuccessfully => resolve the block ("block resolution")


Then in both case:
5/ play cards "after action resolution"


Exactly you are proving my point. Block resolution is resolution of Block "action". And combat is part of this action as general rulings says. This action is not finished(resolved) until combat ends. So in theory if card say "before block resolution" it means before combat ends.

I thnik you are talking about this situation:

4/ resolve the action unsuccessfully => Block is resolved and combat begins.

But in this case combat can't be part of Block so general ruling is not correct.

Because right now you have this situation: block is resolved before combat and combat is still part of block even after its resolved. As I said confusing.(And not logical ;) )

And if you are treating "block resolution" as segment name its even more confusing because it indicates a timing of an action and in reality it's only a name.

you can see the effects already on one post before mine

Its ok in the rule book:

1. Block action
1.1 Block declaration
1.2 Block resolution

But on the card it indicates timing "before block[action] resolution" In this case you need to put indicator to distinguish timing from segment name.

example on card

Before"block resolution"
Before block resolution
Last edit: 30 May 2019 07:54 by Tadori.

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03 Jun 2019 06:40 - 03 Jun 2019 06:47 #95153 by Bloodartist

Tadori wrote:
I understand your explanation and its ok. but the wording itself is a little not intuitive


I agree. The issue is that many things can happen before block resolution, but their relative timing is not well-defined.

Just had an example come up in lackey game last night:
Change of target vs unleash the hell's fury. Works or no?

We interpreted that it does work, but the wordings are far from clear. One card says "if blocked" another says "If successfully blocked". So both should happen?

In any case, why is "successful block" something else than "successful resolution of a block"? Seriously. We know there is no combat if unleash blocks, so it's block never resolves according to the newsletter definition. Yet the card refers to "successful block". (EDIT: actually successful attempt to block)

"If a man wanders into a tiger's domain, it may result in his being devoured.
And so it has."
-- Pisha, VtM:B

Last edit: 03 Jun 2019 06:47 by Bloodartist.

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03 Jun 2019 12:04 - 03 Jun 2019 12:10 #95156 by Ankha

Bloodartist wrote: Just had an example come up in lackey game last night:
Change of target vs unleash the hell's fury. Works or no?

We interpreted that it does work, but the wordings are far from clear. One card says "if blocked" another says "If successfully blocked".


Official cardtexts:

Name: Change of Target
[Jyhad:U, VTES:U, CE:U, Anarchs:PAB2, LoB:PG2/PI2, KoT:U/PM3, SP:LB4]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Only usable if this minion is blocked, before block resolution.
Unlock this acting minion, and the action ends (unsuccessfully). This minion cannot perform the same action again this turn.

Name: Unleash Hell's Fury
[HttB:R, Anthology:1]
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 2 pool
Discipline: Daimoinon
Burn Option
+1 stealth action. Requires an infernal vampire. Unique.
[dai] Put this card in play. This card can attempt to block a (D) action against you and is considered a 9-capacity infernal vampire with +2 intercept during that attempt; if successful, the acting minion takes 1 unpreventable aggravated damage, and this card is burned.
[DAI] As above, and unlock this vampire.

UHF doesn't say "successfully blocks" (which would be redundant) but takes interest in the block attempt (which can be successful or not).

Bloodartist wrote: So both should happen?

Yes. The action was blocked. CoT ends the action and unlocks the minion. UHF inflicts 1 aggravated damage and burns.

groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/TcUDpHnvW8M/YznjkbV3JLoJ

Bloodartist wrote: In any case, why is "successful block" something else than "successful resolution of a block"?

Moot (only the block attempt can be successful. Considering your EDIT, you realized that). "successful block" is redundant and shouldn't appear in any cardtext (except really old ones).

Bloodartist wrote: . Seriously. We know there is no combat if unleash blocks, so it's block never resolves according to the newsletter definition. Yet the card refers to "successful block". (EDIT: actually successful attempt to block)

The block never resolves indeed, because UHF inflicts the aggravated damage and burns before.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 03 Jun 2019 12:10 by Ankha.

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04 Jun 2019 08:45 - 04 Jun 2019 09:28 #95164 by Tadori

Bloodartist wrote:

Tadori wrote:
I understand your explanation and its ok. but the wording itself is a little not intuitive


I agree. The issue is that many things can happen before block resolution, but their relative timing is not well-defined.


Exactly and in my opinion to clear this situation is to add a clarification to the rules:

First action segment 6.1 should be updated with "Block attempt" (yes it's an action. Interrupt action to other player action to be precise). Description of this should send you to 6.2.2 "Resolve Any Block Attempts" and 6.2.2 should be updated with timing chart. Something like this:

EXAMPLE

It also eliminates problem with timing because action is call "Block attempt" so "before block resolution" is not indicating timing of action any more and there is a clear information what card can be played when, Also its creates a set of key words that can be used as standard on cards to indicate timing.
Last edit: 04 Jun 2019 09:28 by Tadori.

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04 Jun 2019 13:22 #95166 by Mewcat

Ankha wrote: Official cardtexts:

Name: Change of Target
[Jyhad:U, VTES:U, CE:U, Anarchs:PAB2, LoB:PG2/PI2, KoT:U/PM3, SP:LB4]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Only usable if this minion is blocked, before block resolution.
Unlock this acting minion, and the action ends (unsuccessfully). This minion cannot perform the same action again this turn.


UHF doesn't say "successfully blocks" (which would be redundant) but takes interest in the block attempt (which can be successful or not).

Yes. The action was blocked. CoT ends the action and unlocks the minion. UHF inflicts 1 aggravated damage and burns.

groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/TcUDpHnvW8M/YznjkbV3JLoJ

The block never resolves indeed, because UHF inflicts the aggravated damage and burns before.


Yes but change of target ends the action and that prevents all kinds of stuff from happening that seems like it should happen. So we play change of target and end the action and then after the action is over the minion takes 1 agg because we remember that if we didn't play change of target it would have been blocked even though there is no longer an action to block? Very messy.

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