file Repo man and whether or not other Methuselah see the library during search

31 Jul 2019 15:37 - 31 Jul 2019 20:41 #96051 by Kilrauko
Hello, after picking up the game after almost decade of absence following question was raised in our group yesterday by new players and despite my pondering and then search I couldn't find clear cut answer to following situations.

www.vekn.net/images/stories/downloads/cardlist.txt wrote: Name: Repo Man
[Anarchs:R]
Cardtype: Ally
Cost: 1 blood
Unique ghoul with 1 life. 0 strength, 0 bleed.
If the action to recruit Repo Man is successful, unlock the acting minion at the end of the turn. Repo Man can retrieve the first vehicle you find in your library as a +2 stealth action. You then place the vehicle on any ready minion you control who meets the requirements of the card (pay cost to equip as normal). If none of your ready minions meet the requirements of the card, the card is burned without cost. Shuffle afterward.
Artist: Peter Bergting



When Repo Man performs his action to search retrieve for first vehicle from his controllers deck and the action succeeds does the controlling methuselah;
1) reveal cards one by one from the top of the library so that other methuselah gain knowledge of those cards as well as the first vehicle?
or
2) look at the cards from top of her library (without revealing to other methuselah) until she comes across first vehicle, shows that to other methusaleh as it's being placed on a minion?
or
3) something else, what?

In addition is there;
4) relevance how the search retrieve for the "first vehicle" starts, from the top, bottom, middle, at any random point in the library?
5) possibility that Repo man search retrieve fails to find anything even if there are vehicles in her library? (For example in situation where Repo man's controller first baits block with Repo Man to enable use of hidden lurker. And as that fails choosing not to find expensive pool cost vehicle that would result in her ousting due to being forced to pay it's cost.)

Thanks in advance for answers and clarifications.

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
Last edit: 31 Jul 2019 20:41 by Kilrauko. Reason: Changed question terminology to match the card text.

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31 Jul 2019 17:05 - 31 Jul 2019 17:07 #96052 by Snodig
You start at the top of your (face down) library, and there is no obligation to show the entire library. Impractical way to traverse, but that’s the implication of the card text.

In a tournament context another player could demand a judge control the delve, but I doubt that’s actually ever happened, as most decks would have one type of vehicle.

Self oust is always dubious (play-to-win and all), but you would do exactly that.
Last edit: 31 Jul 2019 17:07 by Snodig. Reason: Added a few points
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31 Jul 2019 19:03 #96054 by kschaefer

Kilrauko wrote: 1) reveal cards one by one from the top of the library so that other methuselah gain knowledge of those cards as well as the first vehicle?
or
2) look at the cards from top of her library (without revealing to other methuselah) until she comes across first vehicle, shows that to other methusaleh as it's being placed on a minion?
or
3) something else, what?

Showing cards that you are not permitted by game rules or card text to show is illegal. (The library is hidden to all players normally.) You must conduct the search without revealing the content of your library. As stated by Snodig, in a tournament, you can ask a judge to monitor the search if you believe that something dubious is going on.

Kilrauko wrote: 4) relevance how the search for the "first vehicle" starts, from the top, bottom, middle, at any random point in the library?

Top.

Kilrauko wrote: 5) possibility that Repo man search fails to find anything even if there are vehicles in her library? (For example in situation where Repo man's controller first baits block with Repo Man to enable use of hidden lurker. And as that fails choosing not to find expensive pool cost vehicle that would result in her ousting due to being forced to pay it's cost.)

You can choose to fail to find a vehicle.
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31 Jul 2019 20:43 #96057 by Snodig
How can you choose to not find the first vehicle down (given that there is one)? That would contradict the card text, would it not?
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31 Jul 2019 20:44 #96058 by Kilrauko
I perhaps need to be clearer on some parts, due to my wrong use of terminology on the first post question 4 & 5 (now corrected in the OP with strikethrough left to show the original error wording). I naturally assumed this "retrieve" to behave, work and follow same rules as "search" does (to a degree where I used the wrong term when asking for help with it), for which we have plenty of ruling by LSJ and others. However Repo Man is only card in current VTES cardlist with that word used for that library manipulation and, well, yeah.

So to correct myself, with apologies to Snodig and kschaefer.

In addition is there;
4) relevance how the retrieve for the "first vehicle" starts, from the top, bottom, middle, at any random point in the library?

Mainly this is important as there are mechanics by other cards, for example

http://www.vekn.net/images/stories/downloads/cardlist.txt wrote: Name: Heart of Nizchetus
[Third:R, KoT:R, Anthology:1, SP:DoF1]
Cardtype: Equipment
Cost: 1 pool
Unique.
If the bearer is ready during your unlock phase, you can draw up to 3 cards without discarding and then move the same number of cards from your hand to the bottom of your library.
Artist: Patrick McEvoy


Along with other like Blackhorse Tanner etc etc.

Name: Blackhorse Tanner
[BH:U2]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Ventrue antitribu
Group: 3
Capacity: 7
Discipline: AUS DOM FOR
Sabbat. Black Hand: Once each turn, when you draw a card from your library, you may place that card on the bottom of your library and draw a new card.
Artist: Andrew Trabbold


that enable methuselah to manipulate her library order on the bottom, enabling perhaps meaningful choice on what the retrieved "first vehicle" happens to be depending on the starting position of such retrieve.

The "Retrieve" word and meaning also affects whether or not we can fall back to old LSJ "able to fail search for ally with The Summoning" that then applies to all searches and gives out to "fail" on search that would result in self-oust by being forced to pay too high pool cost.


In addition is there;
5) possibility that Repo man retrieve fails to find anything even if there are vehicles in her library? (For example in situation where Repo man's controller first baits block with Repo Man to enable use of hidden lurker. And as that fails choosing not to find expensive pool cost vehicle that would result in her ousting due to being forced to pay it's cost.)

Sorry for possible additional trouble and time spent on this, as "old" player I automatically thought start from the top, don't reveal, tournament official help if required -ruling but the new players from MTG got me into thinking closer to the card and how it works vs how I think it should work.

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

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31 Jul 2019 20:46 #96059 by Ankha

kschaefer wrote:

Kilrauko wrote: 5) possibility that Repo man search fails to find anything even if there are vehicles in her library? (For example in situation where Repo man's controller first baits block with Repo Man to enable use of hidden lurker. And as that fails choosing not to find expensive pool cost vehicle that would result in her ousting due to being forced to pay it's cost.)

You can choose to fail to find a vehicle.


No, this is not a "search" effect. Repo Man retrieves the first vehicle found, even if it ousts you, or would contest etc. (Just like Vast Wealth.)

groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/GsI1UyH54jU/x9LfDZX1vR4J

groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.deckmaster/_6CXoKTSLnw/FdG67-3HEAQJ

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