Repo man and whether or not other Methuselah see the library during search

I said this before in a dick-ish way, but I'll try to say it nicer this time...

Just a friendly reminder to you all to say it nicer all the time.

BenPeal wrote:

I said this before in a dick-ish way, but I'll try to say it nicer this time...

Just a friendly reminder to you all to say it nicer all the time.

How can I be nice when someone peed in my cheerios?

Kraus wrote:

TwoRazorReign wrote:

Kushiel wrote:

We've already got rules in place for this: if you think someone's cheating via hidden information, you can call a judge to have them check that they're not.

Well, I mean, that's a tournament rule. What if it happens in casual play? Granted, I've never had any cheating issues happen in VTES because I simply don't play it often, but I've come across cheating of this sort many times in other games. I'd really like to avoid a situation after the game where it's like "show me the card" and the person is like "no."

No amount of rules will be able to rein in people who willingly and outrageously would be willing to cheat between friends.

In tournament environments we already have rules. You could always ask kindly before the game if everyone would agree to first of all respect the rules printed, and if necessary, abide by tournament rules as well.

For the record, I do whole heartedly understand why duel games require you to show cards that are fetched that have restrictions. It could be reinforced in VtES as well. It could. But it isn't, and we have a solution in place that requires a bit of investment from a judge.
It is not an ideal solution, but it is a solution. Just to make everything flow smoothly, I think it is absolutely something to take pride in that we don't, even at highest levels of playing, need to resort to judges checking fetches.
Still, you have the option to call for a judge.

I have some observations about the point being made about “trying to make a rule to stop cheaters” and the point that “you have the option to call for a judge”. And about the LSJ answer that he gave me when I asked "how the hell do I know if my prey got a minion card with mistress fanchon" - he answered me saying "You do not play with cheaters."

We aren't trying to stop cheaters. The philosophy is fixing a design flaw to help players maintain a safe game state (without errors). How many of us saw people governing or even influencing the wrong vampire, or mistakenly playing a card when he cannot? I'm one of those for sure, and I play this game for almost 20 years.

Now, we think about of what could happen. Let's imagine the following situations:

1. A player doesn't know the concept of "minion" cards and mistakes it for any library card (or any non crypt card). He plays several games along months and no one will ever notice the error unless someone is watching or call a judge.

2. The same as 1, but during many rounds in a tournament.

How do you solve this? Was him cheating? Surely it is up to the judge to make a call, but the whole situation could be avoided with minimal rules changes. The objective is not to make the game cheater-proof, but to make the entire gamestate safe and trackeable by everyone without needing to call a judge.

The 1 situation happened with in my playgroup (the player did not knew the rules). Lucky thing I was ousted and started to watch him.

About the point I Always hear that Vampire is a Mature Game: I've seen cheating in VTES with my own eyes several times. Not in my playgroup, but many others, when I traveled to play. I've witnessed a player - that today is a prince - getting his just played eyes of chaos from his ash heap, putting in his hand and discarding other card on his discard phase. I've seen people abusing cards by the lack of knowledge in english language in the translation of a card (That happened for several months, when the deck won at least two major tournaments. And yes, it was me who stopped it, after arguing for almost half an hour on the FAQ/ERRATA wording with several people who used to judge). I've seen people shuffling again their crypts after they drawed them pretending to still be shuffling them. I've seen people who were on the final table discussing final table dynamics and doing hidden table talk before it started. I've seen people pretending to be shuffling their deck, when all their cards are ordered. And finally, yes, I've catched at the end of table people bloating with govern on older vampires intentionally. Everything during tournaments.

I'm happy that none of those shady stuffs ever happened on my playgroup. But I know they exist out there, and I find annoying that the hard coded rules in the game forces us to trust in a stranger on a tournament match to get sure they are playing right. It may be a good rule on a small playgroup or on a casual game, but no serious competitive game asks predicts that you have to call the judge to avoid this. All of the serious games have their rules designed so anyone - a player or a observer - can know everything about the game state and know if it is right or wrong.

And why I think calling a judge is not a good solution? First, calling a judge will generate unnecessary friction in the eyes of all table, which goes against the sportmanship and social aspect of the game. I can be on my right, but In fact 99% of the time I will be annoying everyone, specially the judge on a multijudge system tournament.

Second, there are very few cards who can abused, and all of them can be easily fixed. About crypt cards: why not make a rule that oblige a player to show a crypt card to everyone when its leaves the uncontrolled region or/and when the game ends? This is so easily fixable that I humbly fail to understand the resistance to recognize this is a problem. Many game designers know it is and avoid at all costs. See Star Wars rebellion (duel) or the new netrunner game from FFG (that one have some very tight and nice rules about showing cards)

If VTES wants to be recognized as a major competitive game, don't make me travel 1500 km to blindly trust 50+ people in a tournament or be making several unnecessary judge calls.

Final words: Why it makes so hard to recognize a problem and apply the solution? I remember when almost everyone here in brazil were posting about a toxic player and posting their testimonials over their times they were harassed and bullyed, and we were promised a VEKN code of conduct. This happend more than an year ago and still the tournament rules are a mess, and no code of conduct on the horizon. Not even a discussion.

It is my belief that this game can't grow while ignoring those problems like they don’t exist.

PS. sorry for my horrible english.

Charles_Bronson wrote:

And why I think calling a judge is not a good solution? First, calling a judge will generate unnecessary friction in the eyes of all table, which goes against the sportmanship and social aspect of the game. I can be on my right, but In fact 99% of the time I will be annoying everyone, specially the judge on a multijudge system tournament.

Asking a judge to stop players cheating is, in your world, going against sportsmanship?

No, no, and many times no. No matter what mechanical fixes might be reasonable to stop certain things happening (e.g. revealing a card so everyone knows you obeyed the restriction on what card you can fetch), there are things that no amount of mechanical tinkering will ever fix. Like, for example, a player taking a card out of their ash heap for no reason. You have to call a judge. No ifs, no buts, no maybes. No nonsense about this somehow being unsportsmanlike. You have to call a judge. The concept of sportsmanship requires you to report infractions like that. If anyone is causing annoyance and friction, it is the players who are cheating.

Please dispense totally with this frankly bizarre notion that letting players cheat is sporting. It isn't.

Charles_Bronson wrote:

Final words: Why it makes so hard to recognize a problem and apply the solution? I remember when almost everyone here in brazil were posting about a toxic player and posting their testimonials over their times they were harassed and bullyed, and we were promised a VEKN code of conduct. This happend more than an year ago and still the tournament rules are a mess, and no code of conduct on the horizon. Not even a discussion.

I agree.
There was initially some discussion but it kinda withered down. Which is a shame as misuse of power and influence, especially on the highest levels is something that NEEDS to be addressed.

FYI: Code of conduct/ethics is currently being reviewed by the National Coordinators.

Lönkka wrote:

FYI: Code of conduct/ethics is currently being reviewed by the National Coordinators.

I'm super happy to learn this! I wonder if it will include community guidelines as well.