file Anu Diptinatpa and Justicar Retribution

16 Sep 2019 18:58 #97013 by Killiam
I'm sure the question has been asked and answered, but I can't find it, so I'm asking again.

1. Can I use Anu Diptinatpa's special ability during a Justicar Retribution referendum to cause a vampire (who would otherwise have only a 2 bleed) to burn?

2. If no to number 1, could I do it during the action to call the vote, before it becomes a referendum?

3. If yes to number 1, what is the latest timing window of the referendum in which I could activate her ability such that the affected vampire would still be burnt as a result?

I did look through the forums, and found the following quote from Vincent on a thread entitled Justicar Retribution. It hints that the answer to 1 may be no, but does not say authoritatively if it is to be ruled that way:

"Action modifiers cards that increase the bleed can't be played on non-bleed actions because their cardtexts forbid it.
Action modifiers cards that give votes can't be played on non-political actions because their cardtexts forbid it.

Action modifiers cards and other effects (e.g., Backways) that increase the stealth can't be played or used when not necessary because the rulebook forbids it.
Reaction cards that increase the intercept (e.g. KRCG News Radio) can't be played or used when not necessary because the rulebook forbids it.

There is probably a loophole here because increasing the bleed on a non-bleed action is not covered by the rules nor the cardtexts for other sources (e.g., Anu Diptinatpa, or Prejudice).

I believe it makes more sense to forbid it, rather than allowing it.

The only vampire for which it makes sense is Andre Leroux because his +2 bleed bonus lasts for the whole turn, and it is designed to work so."

Anyhow, thanks much for reading. I'm sure there will be many opinions, but what I'm looking for is either an official ruling made here or a link to an existing ruling for this question.

Thank you!

-Bill Troxel (aka, Killiam -- that's "William", but with more Killing)

Name: Anu Diptinatpa
[HttB:U/A2]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Nagaraja
Group: 6
Capacity: 7
Discipline: aus vic DOM NEC
Independent: During an action, Anu can burn 1 blood to give any minion +1 bleed. Scarce.

Name: Justicar Retribution
[VTES:U, CE:U, KoT:U]
Cardtype: Political Action
Requires a Camarilla vampire.
Successful referendum burns all vampires with a current bleed of 3 or more.

-Killiam
(Bill Troxel)
"How did some slip of a girly boy from communist East Berlin become the internationally ignored song stylist barely standing before you?" -Hedwig Robinson

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16 Sep 2019 20:23 #97014 by thelonius reloaded
Afaik you can't increase bleed during a non bleed action either by modifiers or cards abilities (see alvusia)

Italian National Coordinator

Lurking in the underground of Bologna, Italy

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16 Sep 2019 20:57 #97015 by Killiam
Just searched this forum under rulings for keyword Alvusia; the only hit I got was your comment.

Is there a ruling you have a link for that says you cannot use Alvusia during Justicar Retribution? That would be super helpful.

If you look at the quote I pasted from Vincent, it seems that there was no ruling against increasing bleed through Anu's special on a non-bleed action at the time; the prohibition was against using +bleed action modifiers on non-bleed actions, which is long-standing.

I'm looking for a ruling that has been made since that would prohibit it.

Thanks,
-Bill

-Killiam
(Bill Troxel)
"How did some slip of a girly boy from communist East Berlin become the internationally ignored song stylist barely standing before you?" -Hedwig Robinson

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16 Sep 2019 23:30 #97017 by jamesatzephyr

Killiam wrote: 1. Can I use Anu Diptinatpa's special ability during a Justicar Retribution referendum to cause a vampire (who would otherwise have only a 2 bleed) to burn?


No.

[LSJ 20020106

LSJ wrote: Can't modify a bleed that doesn't exist.

The following user(s) said Thank You: Killiam

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17 Sep 2019 00:34 #97018 by Killiam
James -

The context for the quote you referenced was specific to the use of an action modifier, so LSJ's use of the term "modify" here can be read as "use an action modifier to augment".

I'm not sure that clears it up, unless you are making a specific ruling on the interpretation of this line.

-Killiam
(Bill Troxel)
"How did some slip of a girly boy from communist East Berlin become the internationally ignored song stylist barely standing before you?" -Hedwig Robinson

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17 Sep 2019 00:36 #97019 by Killiam
Moreover, Anu's special explicitly does not modify a bleed. It modifies a minion.

-Killiam
(Bill Troxel)
"How did some slip of a girly boy from communist East Berlin become the internationally ignored song stylist barely standing before you?" -Hedwig Robinson

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