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Rémi wrote:

Howewer, I would say this is irrelevant since using a genuine card + proxy in the same sleeve make that sleeve heavier than a regular sleeve.
Following your point, using proxies not in every sleeve of a deck means a "cheating" risk.

But it is still better than allowing people to print their own cards, or use whatever backers they want. Only allowing VTES cards means the exact measurements, which is more important than weight.

And I have to agree with Boris the Blade, if you can´t get a hold of ANY 100 or so crap commons to use as backers, you might not have the heart and commitment to bother playing a tournament at all.

Can anyone show me those mythical players with 0 cards but deep enough knowledge of the game that they know exactly what they want to play? Building a deck list is much more of a barrier than getting 102 commons, and that also holds for old players who sold everything (or even those who kept a deck: remember that 90 card Gr. 1 deck? )

TwoRazorReign wrote:

[And that's generous of you to be willing to lend your cards to players who show up to tournaments without any cards. However, it should not be an expectation that players should hand out their cards for other players to borrow. People can easily forget to return them, or cards may get lost, or someone may just decide to start their own collection by stealing your cards...

Not lend, give if someone needs the cards.

ANYONE that has been playing the game for a while is buried in crappy commons and such. Who needs 216th copy of Domain Challenge?

I rather have new players around than metric crapload of wallpaper commons.
And it is not that difficult to make some straightforward common/uncommon only basic decks (see Extrala's articles on this at his blog) that can be given to newbies so they can get hooked on the game.

Dear Ashur,

Ashur wrote:

Rémi wrote:

Dear all,

Thanks, that sounds some good news. May I ask why you still ask to print on standard paper and use a genuine cards to use proxies?

It prevents that kind of cheating. Do you understand what I am saying Rémi?

Thanks for considering my question
Howewer, I would say this is irrelevant since using a genuine card + proxy in the same sleeve make that sleeve heavier than a regular sleeve.
Following your point, using proxies not in every sleeve of a deck means a "cheating" risk.

By the way I 've put my first post on this thread just to say that :
- Allowing 100% of proxies in tounaments is OK for people who has got a collection even it it is really small.
- Allowing people without any genuine cards to go to tournament would have been better.

I understand that many people does not share those ideas.

Best Regards,
Rémi.

Pascal wrote:

As we just received their answer, the implementation of the checkbox on the Event Module Creation isn't fully complete, and we kindly ask for your patience before creating Proxy-allowing events (it shouldn't take long).

Done.

TwoRazorReign wrote:

And that's generous of you to be willing to lend your cards to players who show up to tournaments without any cards. However, it should not be an expectation that players should hand out their cards for other players to borrow. People can easily forget to return them, or cards may get lost, or someone may just decide to start their own collection by stealing your cards...

I think it was more cards given rather than cards lent. I have plenty of crappy promo cards to give for instance.
I'm not expecting people to do the same, but I know that other players would do the same willingly.

elotar wrote:

TwoRazorReign wrote:

These people probably don't want the hassle...

VtES is a complicated game with no real rewards for tournament wins in which one player can easily spoil 2-hour game for 4 others.

People, who "don't want the hassle" will make the tournament worse and after it will be generally lost to comunity anyway. It's better for them to not come at the first place.

Oh really? It sounds to me like you're scared that the guy who doesn't own any actual cards is going to end up with more VPs than you.

Lönkka wrote:

TwoRazorReign wrote:

Requiring actual VTES cards for use with proxies is an added barrier to entry to tournaments. Consider the players who sold their collections ages ago but now want to get back into tournament-level VTES with proxies. These people probably don't want the hassle of buying old, used junk cards to re-enter the game. Sure, the cards are cheap. But you can't just walk into a store and pick them up from the shelf. And nobody wants to buy old, crappy cards no matter how cheap they are. These may seem like small considerations, but they are significant barriers to entry.

Please read what Brum just wrote.
Anyone can easily get 102 VTES cards from any of the current players.
Not any kind of restricting matter!

Besides, it is easier to use the exact same rules that we already use with the new PDF sets!

Sure it's easier, but it's still restricting those that don't own any cards from tournaments. Why have this restriction? If somebody wants to play in a tournament of VTES, a game that has been out of print for 6 years now with no immediate future of going back into print, they should be able to play in the tournament.

And that's generous of you to be willing to lend your cards to players who show up to tournaments without any cards. However, it should not be an expectation that players should hand out their cards for other players to borrow. People can easily forget to return them, or cards may get lost, or someone may just decide to start their own collection by stealing your cards...

TwoRazorReign wrote:

Requiring actual VTES cards for use with proxies is an added barrier to entry to tournaments. Consider the players who sold their collections ages ago but now want to get back into tournament-level VTES with proxies. These people probably don't want the hassle of buying old, used junk cards to re-enter the game. Sure, the cards are cheap. But you can't just walk into a store and pick them up from the shelf. And nobody wants to buy old, crappy cards no matter how cheap they are. These may seem like small considerations, but they are significant barriers to entry.

Please read what Brum just wrote.
Anyone can easily get 102 VTES cards from any of the current players.
Not any kind of restricting matter!

Besides, it is easier to use the exact same rules that we already use with the new PDF sets!

TwoRazorReign wrote:

These people probably don't want the hassle...

VtES is a complicated game with no real rewards for tournament wins in which one player can easily spoil 2-hour game for 4 others.

People, who "don't want the hassle" will make the tournament worse and after it will be generally lost to comunity anyway. It's better for them to not come at the first place.

Brum wrote:

I think is actually a mater of IP legality.

How?

If the use of proxy prints does not infringe IP rights, then the presence of an official piece of cardboard is irrelevant.

If the use of proxy prints does infringe IP rights, the presence of an official piece of cardboard does not alter that. If I've infringed artistic copyright held by an artist or by Wizards/Hasbro, the fact that there is a piece of cardboard in there with artwork by a different artist produced by White Wolf doesn't change any element of the infringement. And the same would potentially apply for more or less any other potential IP infringement, to the extent that any intellectual property still vests in Hasbro/Wizards. (Anything owned by White Wolf/CCP and transferred to Paradox is fine in this scenario.)

Rémi wrote:

Dear all,

Thanks, that sounds some good news. May I ask why you still ask to print on standard paper and use a genuine cards to use proxies?

I guess Damnans or Pascal or somebody in charge could answer this (anytime soon preferably!), but my take is that if you force people to use VTES cards as backs, you will never get into any kind of argument with people using cards that are ALMOST the exact measurements, thickness and so on. It prevents that kind of cheating. Do you understand what I am saying Rémi?

Ankha wrote:

What is the reason not to follow the rules? It can't be a cost problem, for 100 junk vtes cards are worth almost nothing. I mean, they must be cheaper than a sandwich or any travel to a tournament place, or to print the cards on thick paper.

So what it is?

You answered a question with a question. I think the poster raises a legitimate question, to which I am sure there is a much better answer than the one you provided. What is the reason for the requirement that proxies include genuine cards with printed paper? Why was this requirement proposed to Paradox?

Requiring actual VTES cards for use with proxies is an added barrier to entry to tournaments. Consider the players who sold their collections ages ago but now want to get back into tournament-level VTES with proxies. These people probably don't want the hassle of buying old, used junk cards to re-enter the game. Sure, the cards are cheap. But you can't just walk into a store and pick them up from the shelf. And nobody wants to buy old, crappy cards no matter how cheap they are. These may seem like small considerations, but they are significant barriers to entry.

Vlad wrote:

Honestly no one cares what will be in the sleeves, as long as it is a card...
Imagine the time lost to check all decks for that !

(And I don't believe a lot ofplayers will play with other cards )

Not checking is one thing. Violating knowingly a tournament rule is another.

Would you encourage people to violate the rules? If not, what is the problem in using V:TES cards to play V:TES and respecting the rules?

Honestly no one cares what will be in the sleeves, as long as it is a card...
Imagine the time lost to check all decks for that !

(And I don't believe a lot ofplayers will play with other cards )

Rémi wrote:

Ankha wrote:

What is the reason not to follow the rules? It can't be a cost problem, for 100 junk vtes cards are worth almost nothing

Hey,

Please do not misunderstand me, it is not a rebel joke of mine.
I am just wondering why the rules still ask players to have genuine cards during events that allow full proxies decks. I undestand that this part of the rules did make sense when the only allowed proxies cards were the VEKN pdf sets.
If someone does not have any cards, he can print proxies but he cannot go to an event that allows proxies.

If nobody thinks this could be simplify, please just forget my two posts and have a good day
Warm regards,
Rémi.

The rules presented here were the exact proposition made to Paradox, to which they gave their consent.

I don't think it's a good idea to write them: "finally, some players want to play VTES with cards from other card games, can we change our agreement?"

But you know the French saying: "give them a hand, they take the arm".