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jamesatzephyr wrote:

Vampire A (acting, blocked) plays Form of Mist.
Vampire B (non-acting) plays Morphean Blow [val].
Combat ends and Vampire A continues to take the action they were taking. Continuing an action that's already in progress doesn't have the same checks as starting an action anew.

[LSJ 20100221]

LSJ wrote:

On Feb 21, 12:43 pm, botipeti <> wrote:

> Let's say vamp A blocks vamp B and in combat vamp B plays Torrent to
> continue the action and vamp A plays Morphean Blow inferior. Can vamp
> B continue the action or continueing is the same as taking an action
> which he cannot do because of Morphean Blow?

He can continue. Similarly, if he lost a single blood in combat and
was then empty, he could still continue the non-hunt action, eve
though empty vampires cannot take non-hunt actions.

On Form of Mist (or Torrent etc.) vs Blissful Agony, I'm reasonably certain that the Blissful Agony "enter combat" effect would end up disrupting the Form of Mist continue action. (Following the usual precedent of Psyche! et al.) However, I can't find a specific ruling that squarely addresses the two.

Correct.
Regarding the last point, we have this:
All Rulings wrote:

Any effect that starts a new combat after the combat that was ended by (or continues the combat that was ended by) a "combat ends and the action continues as if unblocked" will nullify the "continue action" part. This includes Psyche (superior), Fast Reaction, Hidden Lurker, and Telepathic Tracking. [LSJ 19980109]

which lacks up-to-date examples, but it still correct.

Vampire A (acting, blocked) plays Form of Mist.
Vampire B (non-acting) plays Morphean Blow [val].
Combat ends and Vampire A continues to take the action they were taking. Continuing an action that's already in progress doesn't have the same checks as starting an action anew.

[LSJ 20100221]

LSJ wrote:

On Feb 21, 12:43 pm, botipeti <> wrote:

> Let's say vamp A blocks vamp B and in combat vamp B plays Torrent to
> continue the action and vamp A plays Morphean Blow inferior. Can vamp
> B continue the action or continueing is the same as taking an action
> which he cannot do because of Morphean Blow?

He can continue. Similarly, if he lost a single blood in combat and
was then empty, he could still continue the non-hunt action, eve
though empty vampires cannot take non-hunt actions.

On Form of Mist (or Torrent etc.) vs Blissful Agony, I'm reasonably certain that the Blissful Agony "enter combat" effect would end up disrupting the Form of Mist continue action. (Following the usual precedent of Psyche! et al.) However, I can't find a specific ruling that squarely addresses the two.

Heys again, I try not be frequent here but another question occured...

Acting vampire plays Form of Mist, the blocking playes Morphean Blow or Blissful Agony... What happens?

Morphean Blow
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Valeren / Celerity
Only usable at close range.
[cel] Strike: combat ends.
[val] Strike: combat ends and put this card on the opposing minion. This minion cannot take actions or block. Burn this card at the end of the turn.
[VAL] As [val] above, and if this vampire was blocked while performing an action other than bleeding, the action continues as if unblocked.

Blissful Agony
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Valeren/Animalism
[ani] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage.
[val] Only usable at close range before strikes are chosen. Opposing minion takes 1 unpreventable damage during strike resolution each round this combat when the range is close. A vampire may play only one Blissful Agony at [val] each combat.
[VAL] Strike: combat ends. Choose a minion controlled by a Methuselah other than the opposing vampire's controller. The opposing vampire enters combat with that minion.

Form of Mist
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Protean
[pro] Strike: dodge.
[PRO] Strike: combat ends. If this vampire is acting [and needs stealth when this strike resolves], he or she may burn 1 blood after combat ends to continue the action at +1 stealth as if unblocked. A vampire may play only one Form of Mist at superior each action.

If we were doing it the way you suggest, we would have
- Psyche! can squeeze a combat between the current combat and a combat another Psyche! queued (and you could play any amount of Psyche!'s in the first combat).
- Blissful Agony vs Blissful Agony would be a mess
- IotK vs IotK would be a mess.

The thing about combat is that it isn't an "instantaneous" effect (such as "send to torpor", "tap" or "burn 1 blood").

LSJ tried not to have any stack at all. He managed - through rulings, sometimes - to avoid stacks. If you queue effects that will happen "later", you're creating such a stack. The problem with stacks is that you delay something's resolution.

Izaak wrote:

Wait wait wait, to have blocker actually blocked and in torpor you have to spend resources on it. You are acting like 'sending someone into torpor is easy task'. It is not. It's most fo times hard and resource intensive and most of all RISKY.

It's not, really.

Torping someone's minion, assuming he plays a deck that can actually win, is often easier than landing a bleed for 3 on the right target.

Unfortunately a LOT of people still think that blowing minions up makes you win even though they are being proven wrong time and time again. Against those (bad) decks, sure torping someone takes some minor effort.

This card wouldn't help those bad decks anyway. It's hard to play at all.

Izaak wrote:

Form of Mist provide you with unconditional dodge at inferior

Unconditional Dodge... wah? Like that's something amazing and special... Do conditional dodges even exist?

Yes, and it's played. Check out OBE/AUS card. Dodge is helpful, it's not s:ce, but with s:ce on superior it's quite versatile (and often better played as dodge, especially if you sport carrion crows or other env. damage.

Izaak wrote:

and combat end on superior in ANY COMBAT, not just when the minion is acting.

You mean like Majesty, Oubliette, No Trace, Blissfull Agony,.... etc. etc. etc. Heck even dominate has a pseudo combat ends (that actually works when grappled).

Does it make it any less powerful ? This card would be played a lot, but have even better s:ce.

Izaak wrote:

It's nearly RISK FREE.

Ye. Until someone plays a Grapple. Or Psyche! Or just rushes again. Or played, like, a 2nd Trad and can just try to block with the same minion again but this time you're SoL because you can't play another FoM.

Like any s:ce. It's not like every deck packs those cards and that they are that strong in every meta.
Lol, you know they can't block you again with second tradition, right ? I don't know where you play, but i want to play there.

Izaak wrote:

Also, you can have the blocking minion in torpor and continue the action with form of mist too (with +1 stealth!).

How does that work? Form of Mist is a strike. I can't actually even imagine a situation where you act, you get blocked, you play Form of Must, the opposing guy somehow goes to torpor and you get to continue...

Also, Form of Mist sits on a pretty lackluster disciple, that is in-clan for exactly one clan with disciplines that are not known for ousting people fast.

Pursuit or any other additional, prevent or even no prevent, form of mist disarm, 3 cards.

Wait wait wait, to have blocker actually blocked and in torpor you have to spend resources on it. You are acting like 'sending someone into torpor is easy task'. It is not. It's most fo times hard and resource intensive and most of all RISKY.

It's not, really.

Torping someone's minion, assuming he plays a deck that can actually win, is often easier than landing a bleed for 3 on the right target.

Unfortunately a LOT of people still think that blowing minions up makes you win even though they are being proven wrong time and time again. Against those (bad) decks, sure torping someone takes some minor effort.

Form of Mist provide you with unconditional dodge at inferior

Unconditional Dodge... wah? Like that's something amazing and special... Do conditional dodges even exist?

and combat end on superior in ANY COMBAT, not just when the minion is acting.

You mean like Majesty, Oubliette, No Trace, Blissfull Agony,.... etc. etc. etc. Heck even dominate has a pseudo combat ends (that actually works when grappled).

It's nearly RISK FREE.

Ye. Until someone plays a Grapple. Or Psyche! Or just rushes again. Or played, like, a 2nd Trad and can just try to block with the same minion again but this time you're SoL because you can't play another FoM.

Also, you can have the blocking minion in torpor and continue the action with form of mist too (with +1 stealth!).

How does that work? Form of Mist is a strike. I can't actually even imagine a situation where you act, you get blocked, you play Form of Must, the opposing guy somehow goes to torpor and you get to continue...

Also, Form of Mist sits on a pretty lackluster disciple, that is in-clan for exactly one clan with disciplines that are not known for ousting people fast.

Soak + Eye of Unforgiving Heaven
Blissful Agony

B)

Playing decks with vampires guaranteed not to contest is its own reward. Playing decks that match up with your own regular playstyle is also of great value. I got a Game Win (round 3) and lasted until time with this deck (round 2, prey kept a vampire untapped every turn, putting almost 0 pressure on his prey), and only behavior of questionable nature prevented a VP or more in its first game of the day (4 back-rush actions in the same turn by the prey, that could have been used to guarantee the game win if used against his prey instead).

Deck Name : I am I, EC2011FCQ
Author : Lasombra
Description :
As played at the First Chance Qualifier during the EC 2011 weekend.
Changes to make before playing it again:
1) Return Richard Tauber or Martin Frankel in place of the duplicate Kervos. (Change was originally made for a storyline tournament, forgot to change back.)
2) Replace 1 Rotschreck with Code of Samiel.
3) Replace Forced Vigilance with other untap cards, the Cats' Guidance effect level was never used.
4) Add a copy of Codex of the Edenic Groundskeepers to keep the prey from ignoring our bleeds.

Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 3 max: 8 average: 5.41667

3x	Dela Eden	(8)			Salubri antitribu	(g3)
3x	Adonai	(7)			Salubri antitribu	(g2)
2x	Kervos, The Lieutenant	(3)			Salubri antitribu	(g2)
1x	Remilliard, Devout Crusader	(4)			Toreador antitribu	(g2)
1x	Thomas Steed, The Angry	(4)			Salubri antitribu	(g2)
1x	Isabel de Leon	(3)			Toreador	(g2)
1x	Zoe	(3)			Malkavian	(g2)

Library [90 cards]

Action [7]
1x Abbot
2x Anima Gathering
4x Sense Death

Combat [25]
4x Armor of Caine's Fury
9x Blissful Agony
7x Eye of Unforgiving Heaven
5x Soak

Equipment [1]
1x Bowl of Convergence

Master [14]
4x Blood Doll
1x Dark Influences
1x Fame
1x Giant's Blood
2x Guardian Angel
3x Path of Retribution, The
2x Rotschreck

Reaction [42]
1x Delaying Tactics
3x Eagle's Sight
3x Enhanced Senses
3x Eyes of Argus
6x Forced Awakening
2x Forced Vigilance
3x My Enemy's Enemy
7x On the Qui Vive
3x Precognition
3x Telepathic Counter
8x Telepathic Misdirection

Retainer [1]
1x Mr. Winthrop

Pascal wrote:

I tend to follow this logic - can't play a card to have it partially fizzle.

Along the same lines.

V:TES printing of Second Tradition: "Requires a ready Prince or Justicar. Only usable by a tapped vampire. Untap this vampire. This reacting vampire gets +2 intercept." Can't play it just to untap (one sentence) and have the intercept fizzle (next sentence). [LSJ 19970707]

jamesatzephyr wrote:

You don't get to partially play a card and have it fizzle part way through if there aren't legal targets for all mandatory effects. (Though targets may disappear part-way thruogh an unresolved action, you need all mandatory targets to be there when declaring the whole effect. The same could apply to strikes, if there was some way of making an opponent ineligible.)

Ergo, Blissful Agony (superior) cannot be played when in combat with an ally.

I tend to follow this logic - can't play a card to have it partially fizzle.
I'm looking for other examples - or situations where this ruling couldn't apply.

Regarding Rötschreck, the course is different. You play it and would have it fully applied, but something (Psyche!, in your example) interrupts its resolution, just as Telepathic Tracking could interrupt Illusions of the Kindred's resolution.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

It has been a long principle of card interpretation that different sentences are different resolution effects of the same card.

You're extremely confused about the difference between several things written on the same card happening in a sequence (which can be interrupted), and having to fully declare the entire effect including legal targets when you play a card.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

The mechanics of Illusions of the Kindred (creating a false vampire from your own crypt to enter combat to replace the CHI-using vampire) should be an exception to the general principle rather than cornerstone for the rest.

No, as stated, Illusions of the Kindred was moved back to fit the general ruling on this issue. Previously, it was an exception.

Your claims are spurious.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

@James: It has been a long principle of card interpretation that different sentences are different resolution effects of the same card. (e.g. Psyche! vs Rotschreck). So while you cannot choose an 'opposing vampire' it doesn't exclude the S:CE effect; they are not conjoined into an "and" effect.

There's no such thing as the rule you are inventing concerning an "and" effect.
The only particuliar structures of sentence that exist are "Do X to do Y" and "During X, do Y".

As jamesatzephyr pointed out, whether there is an "and" or not changes nothing. You can't play a card "partially".

BTW, the question have already been answered by LSJ (but by MP) www.veknfrance.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12697 (in French)

jamesatzephyr wrote:

The same could apply to strikes, if there was some way of making an opponent ineligible.)

There is way to do it, and it's called infernal familiar.

@James: It has been a long principle of card interpretation that different sentences are different resolution effects of the same card. (e.g. Psyche! vs Rotschreck). So while you cannot choose an 'opposing vampire' it doesn't exclude the S:CE effect; they are not conjoined into an "and" effect.

The mechanics of Illusions of the Kindred (creating a false vampire from your own crypt to enter combat to replace the CHI-using vampire) should be an exception to the general principle rather than cornerstone for the rest.

As has been stated there is no "Only usable in combat with a X", I'd be happy to interpret Illusions of the Kindred as having "Only usable if there is are crypt cards in your Crypt" instead of breaking the principle that full-stops separate effects.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

S:CE will succeed, it is not "S:CE and do X" it is "S:CE". "Now do X". So everything after the S:CE will fail.

No, that's not true. (I've been trying to find actual precedent for the last day or so...)

The precedent is Illusions of the Kindred.

[RTR 20000501]

That wrote:

Illusions of the Kindred cannot be played if your Crypt is empty,
by the general ruling against playing effects that choose/target
something when there is no "something" to choose/target. This is
a reversal of the previous Illusions of Kindred ruling, making it
match the general ruling.

The (relevant) text of Illusions of the Kindred is:

Illusions wrote:

Combat ends. Move the bottom card of your crypt to your ready region.

(This is a slight change from the original wording to clarify which vampire is taken, but that was still "Combat Ends. Move....")

You don't get to partially play a card and have it fizzle part way through if there aren't legal targets for all mandatory effects. (Though targets may disappear part-way thruogh an unresolved action, you need all mandatory targets to be there when declaring the whole effect. The same could apply to strikes, if there was some way of making an opponent ineligible.)

Ergo, Blissful Agony (superior) cannot be played when in combat with an ally.