Blissful Agony vs allies
30 Oct 2011 05:13 - 30 Oct 2011 05:15 #13042
by Haze
Blissful Agony vs allies was created by Haze
We had this situation today, where a Salubri Antitribu used superior Blissful Agony against many attacking Shambling Hordes (very Halloween themed). after an observer carefully read the card, we realized for the first time ever that it says opposing vampire, and we had to rewind several extra combats that should never have taken place! no more sending war ghouls and shamblers after your enemies! (yay/boo)
What I'm wondering about this has to do with the way the superior effect is worded. I think it could be argued that you can not even play the S:CE at all if the opposing minion is an ally, much like the restriction on Taste of Vitae. neither card says "if the opposing minion is a vampire" but just says "the opposing vampire". also, the blissful agony extra combat is not optional (unlike form of mist)
so against allies: does the superior do just S:CE and nothing extra? or not allowed to be played for S:CE at all?
Blissful Agony [BL:R1, LoB:R]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Strike: make a hand strike at +1 damage.
Only usable at close range before strikes are chosen. Opposing minion
takes 1 unpreventable damage during strike resolution each round this combat
when the range is close. A vampire may play only one Blissful Agony at [val]
each combat.
Strike: combat ends. Choose a minion controlled by a Methuselah other
than the opposing vampire's controller. The opposing vampire enters combat
with that minion.
Taste of Vitae
Type: Combat
Only usable at the end of a round of combat. Not usable by a vampire going into torpor. This vampire gains an amount of blood equal to the amount lost by the opposing vampire to damage during this round of combat. A vampire can play only 1 Taste of Vitae each round.
What I'm wondering about this has to do with the way the superior effect is worded. I think it could be argued that you can not even play the S:CE at all if the opposing minion is an ally, much like the restriction on Taste of Vitae. neither card says "if the opposing minion is a vampire" but just says "the opposing vampire". also, the blissful agony extra combat is not optional (unlike form of mist)
so against allies: does the superior do just S:CE and nothing extra? or not allowed to be played for S:CE at all?
Blissful Agony [BL:R1, LoB:R]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood


takes 1 unpreventable damage during strike resolution each round this combat
when the range is close. A vampire may play only one Blissful Agony at [val]
each combat.

than the opposing vampire's controller. The opposing vampire enters combat
with that minion.
Taste of Vitae
Type: Combat
Only usable at the end of a round of combat. Not usable by a vampire going into torpor. This vampire gains an amount of blood equal to the amount lost by the opposing vampire to damage during this round of combat. A vampire can play only 1 Taste of Vitae each round.
Last edit: 30 Oct 2011 05:15 by Haze.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
30 Oct 2011 08:59 #13045
by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Blissful Agony vs allies
You can't play Blisful Agony vs an ally at VAL at all (same as Taste of Vitae vs an ally).
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
30 Oct 2011 13:40 #13049
by Adonai
Replied by Adonai on topic Re: Blissful Agony vs allies
I disagree.
Pascal, will you provide a ruling?
The strike is pretty unambiguous and is always applicable when not restricted by Immortal Grapple/NSA Trio.
The extraneous effects clearly do not apply to allies, but they do not restrict the playing of the strike.
Pascal, will you provide a ruling?
Strike: combat ends.
The strike is pretty unambiguous and is always applicable when not restricted by Immortal Grapple/NSA Trio.
The extraneous effects clearly do not apply to allies, but they do not restrict the playing of the strike.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
30 Oct 2011 19:07 #13057
by blackday
Replied by blackday on topic Re: Blissful Agony vs allies
I agree the statement is ambiguous, as it doesn't state the requirement of an opposing vampire to end combat.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
30 Oct 2011 19:07 #13058
by Juggernaut1981




Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
Replied by Juggernaut1981 on topic Re: Blissful Agony vs allies
S:CE will succeed, it is not "S:CE and do X" it is "S:CE". "Now do X". So everything after the S:CE will fail.





Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Juggernaut1981
-
- Offline
- Antediluvian
-
Less
More
- Posts: 2376
- Thank you received: 326
01 Nov 2011 09:18 #13138
by jamesatzephyr
No, that's not true. (I've been trying to find actual precedent for the last day or so...)
The precedent is Illusions of the Kindred.
[RTR 20000501]
The (relevant) text of Illusions of the Kindred is:
You don't get to partially play a card and have it fizzle part way through if there aren't legal targets for all mandatory effects. (Though targets may disappear part-way thruogh an unresolved action, you need all mandatory targets to be there when declaring the whole effect. The same could apply to strikes, if there was some way of making an opponent ineligible.)
Ergo, Blissful Agony (superior) cannot be played when in combat with an ally.
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Re: Blissful Agony vs allies
S:CE will succeed, it is not "S:CE and do X" it is "S:CE". "Now do X". So everything after the S:CE will fail.
No, that's not true. (I've been trying to find actual precedent for the last day or so...)
The precedent is Illusions of the Kindred.
[RTR 20000501]
Illusions of the Kindred cannot be played if your Crypt is empty,
by the general ruling against playing effects that choose/target
something when there is no "something" to choose/target. This is
a reversal of the previous Illusions of Kindred ruling, making it
match the general ruling.
The (relevant) text of Illusions of the Kindred is:
(This is a slight change from the original wording to clarify which vampire is taken, but that was still "Combat Ends. Move....")Combat ends. Move the bottom card of your crypt to your ready region.
You don't get to partially play a card and have it fizzle part way through if there aren't legal targets for all mandatory effects. (Though targets may disappear part-way thruogh an unresolved action, you need all mandatory targets to be there when declaring the whole effect. The same could apply to strikes, if there was some way of making an opponent ineligible.)
Ergo, Blissful Agony (superior) cannot be played when in combat with an ally.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- jamesatzephyr
-
- Offline
- Antediluvian
-
Less
More
- Posts: 2788
- Thank you received: 958
Time to create page: 0.091 seconds
- You are here:
-
Home
-
Forum
-
V:TES Discussion
-
Rules Questions
- Blissful Agony vs allies