Re: Strix superior and the edge
16 Dec 2011 07:43 #18624
by TunFiskeMad
- I have bitten the mighy judge-beard.
Replied by TunFiskeMad on topic Re: Strix superior and the edge
Is't "the bleed is now unsuccesful" redundant text since it is now for zero and hence cannot be a succesful bleed?
As stated before it is posible to change a bleed from succesful to unsuccesful.
If you could gain the edge before strix then why couldnt you gain the edge before spying mission?
As stated before it is posible to change a bleed from succesful to unsuccesful.
If you could gain the edge before strix then why couldnt you gain the edge before spying mission?
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16 Dec 2011 08:17 #18626
by henrik
Quote correct card text if you're gonna quote card text. Using quotation marks like that brings confusion.
Where was it stated that it's possible to change a bleed from successful to unsuccessful?
The differences in card text were listed on the first page of this thread. Please check those posts instead of asking for new ones on the same subject.
Replied by henrik on topic Re: Strix superior and the edge
Is't "the bleed is now unsuccesful" redundant text since it is now for zero and hence cannot be a succesful bleed?
As stated before it is posible to change a bleed from succesful to unsuccesful.
If you could gain the edge before strix then why couldnt you gain the edge before spying mission?
Quote correct card text if you're gonna quote card text. Using quotation marks like that brings confusion.
Where was it stated that it's possible to change a bleed from successful to unsuccessful?
The differences in card text were listed on the first page of this thread. Please check those posts instead of asking for new ones on the same subject.
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16 Dec 2011 08:59 - 16 Dec 2011 09:00 #18628
by TunFiskeMad
Regarding changing from succesful to unsuccesful, some of those cards have been mentioned several times; Archon investigation and spying mission to name a few.
If I didn't phrase the comment about strix card text clearly enough here it is again:
The text "the bleed is now unsuccesful" is redundant since a bleed for zero is unsuccesful.
- I have bitten the mighy judge-beard.
Replied by TunFiskeMad on topic Re: Strix superior and the edge
Is't "the bleed is now unsuccesful" redundant text since it is now for zero and hence cannot be a succesful bleed?
As stated before it is posible to change a bleed from succesful to unsuccesful.
If you could gain the edge before strix then why couldnt you gain the edge before spying mission?
Quote correct card text if you're gonna quote card text. Using quotation marks like that brings confusion.
Where was it stated that it's possible to change a bleed from successful to unsuccessful?
The differences in card text were listed on the first page of this thread. Please check those posts instead of asking for new ones on the same subject.
Regarding changing from succesful to unsuccesful, some of those cards have been mentioned several times; Archon investigation and spying mission to name a few.
If I didn't phrase the comment about strix card text clearly enough here it is again:
The text "the bleed is now unsuccesful" is redundant since a bleed for zero is unsuccesful.
- I have bitten the mighy judge-beard.
Last edit: 16 Dec 2011 09:00 by TunFiskeMad.
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16 Dec 2011 09:24 - 16 Dec 2011 09:25 #18630
by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Strix superior and the edge
There's no such card with the cardtext you quote. I agree with Henrik: what are you talking about?Regarding changing from succesful to unsuccesful, some of those cards have been mentioned several times; Archon investigation and spying mission to name a few.
If I didn't phrase the comment about strix card text clearly enough here it is again:
The text "the bleed is now unsuccesful" is redundant since a bleed for zero is unsuccesful.
Last edit: 16 Dec 2011 09:25 by Ankha.
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16 Dec 2011 09:36 #18632
by henrik
There are those two, yes. None of them are played after the bleed is successful. None of them change the bleed from successful to unsuccessful. See the card texts below:
Name: Archon Investigation
Cardtype: Master
Cost: 3 pool
Master: out-of-turn.
Only usable when a minion is attempting to bleed you and the bleed amount is 4 or more. Burn the acting minion. (The action is not successful.)
Name: Spying Mission
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Obfuscate
[obf] +1 stealth.
[OBF] Only usable when a bleed would be successful. The bleed burns no pool; it is unsuccessful. Instead, put this card on the acting vampire. The next time this vampire successfully bleeds the same Methuselah, burn this card for +2 bleed.
It wasn't clear to me that you were talking about card text that didn't exist. It looked to me like you were misquoting the card text on Archon Investigation or Spying Mission.
Anyway, there's the question about whether Strix actually changes the bleed amount though, card text only states that "The bleed burns no pool". Reducing the pool burnt isn't necessarily the same as reducing the bleed amount.
As for the card text being redundant, it apparently wasn't redundant in other cases (Spying Mission, Archon Investigation) where it's actually quite clear that the bleeds would end up unsuccessful. The lack of such text on Strix could be either because it was deemed unneeded or because Strix was meant to work differently (which is sort of the core of the original question here).
The issue could be compared to Sudden Reversal/Wash vs Santaleous, where Santaleous lacks the "no cost is payed" text and thus works differently.
Name: Strix
Cardtype: Reaction
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Striga
Burn Option
[str] +1 intercept, even if intercept is not yet needed. If this vampire successfully blocks this action, he or she untaps at the end of the action. [str] is not a Discipline.
[STR] Only usable when a bleed against you is successful. The bleed burns no pool. Instead, this vampire taps and enters combat with the acting minion.
Replied by henrik on topic Re: Strix superior and the edge
Regarding changing from succesful to unsuccesful, some of those cards have been mentioned several times; Archon investigation and spying mission to name a few.
There are those two, yes. None of them are played after the bleed is successful. None of them change the bleed from successful to unsuccessful. See the card texts below:
Name: Archon Investigation
Cardtype: Master
Cost: 3 pool
Master: out-of-turn.
Only usable when a minion is attempting to bleed you and the bleed amount is 4 or more. Burn the acting minion. (The action is not successful.)
Name: Spying Mission
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Obfuscate
[obf] +1 stealth.
[OBF] Only usable when a bleed would be successful. The bleed burns no pool; it is unsuccessful. Instead, put this card on the acting vampire. The next time this vampire successfully bleeds the same Methuselah, burn this card for +2 bleed.
If I didn't phrase the comment about strix card text clearly enough here it is again:
The text "the bleed is now unsuccesful" is redundant since a bleed for zero is unsuccesful.
It wasn't clear to me that you were talking about card text that didn't exist. It looked to me like you were misquoting the card text on Archon Investigation or Spying Mission.
Anyway, there's the question about whether Strix actually changes the bleed amount though, card text only states that "The bleed burns no pool". Reducing the pool burnt isn't necessarily the same as reducing the bleed amount.
As for the card text being redundant, it apparently wasn't redundant in other cases (Spying Mission, Archon Investigation) where it's actually quite clear that the bleeds would end up unsuccessful. The lack of such text on Strix could be either because it was deemed unneeded or because Strix was meant to work differently (which is sort of the core of the original question here).
The issue could be compared to Sudden Reversal/Wash vs Santaleous, where Santaleous lacks the "no cost is payed" text and thus works differently.
Name: Strix
Cardtype: Reaction
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Striga
Burn Option
[str] +1 intercept, even if intercept is not yet needed. If this vampire successfully blocks this action, he or she untaps at the end of the action. [str] is not a Discipline.
[STR] Only usable when a bleed against you is successful. The bleed burns no pool. Instead, this vampire taps and enters combat with the acting minion.
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16 Dec 2011 11:58 #18647
by TunFiskeMad
- I have bitten the mighy judge-beard.
Replied by TunFiskeMad on topic Re: Strix superior and the edge
Fair enough, I just reread the bleed section of the rules:
rules section 6.1.1. Bleed
Additionally, if the action succeeds and the bleed amount is one or more, then the bleed is successful and the controller of the acting minion gets the Edge, taking it from the Methuselah who has it.
(I haven't quoted it all just the last paragraph).
Going by this I would have to conceed that it seems rather clear that the edge moves, since it is not the pool burned but the amount of the bleed that is relevant for the edge to move.
rules section 6.1.1. Bleed
Additionally, if the action succeeds and the bleed amount is one or more, then the bleed is successful and the controller of the acting minion gets the Edge, taking it from the Methuselah who has it.
(I haven't quoted it all just the last paragraph).
Going by this I would have to conceed that it seems rather clear that the edge moves, since it is not the pool burned but the amount of the bleed that is relevant for the edge to move.
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16 Dec 2011 12:18 #18651
by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Strix superior and the edge
That is the whole point in the discussion.Going by this I would have to conceed that it seems rather clear that the edge moves, since it is not the pool burned but the amount of the bleed that is relevant for the edge to move.
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16 Dec 2011 14:38 #18664
by Pascal Bertrand
Replied by Pascal Bertrand on topic Re: Strix superior and the edge
I pinged LSJ about the design intent of that one. I'm still waiting for his answer. After an amount of time I decide too long, I'll answer here directly.
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02 Jan 2012 00:42 #19704
by Pascal Bertrand
Replied by Pascal Bertrand on topic Re: Strix superior and the edge
Rewording Strix as part of the "When bleed is successful" rewordings in
RTR 20111202
.
New cardtext:
Name: Strix
Cardtype: Reaction
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Striga
Burn Option
[str] +1 intercept, even if intercept is not yet needed. If this vampire successfully blocks this action, he or she untaps at the end of the action. [str] is not a Discipline.
[STR] Only usable when a bleed against you {would be} successful. The bleed burns no pool. Instead, this vampire taps and enters combat with the acting minion.
This gets played in the usual Spying Mission window. Edge moves, per the definition of a successful bleed (bleed amount > 0 and successful action).
If you think altering it into "The bleed burns no pool {but remains successful}." would be clearer, let me know. That's a quick change that doesn't change how the card works, and that I can do on the fly.
New cardtext:
Name: Strix
Cardtype: Reaction
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Striga
Burn Option
[str] +1 intercept, even if intercept is not yet needed. If this vampire successfully blocks this action, he or she untaps at the end of the action. [str] is not a Discipline.
[STR] Only usable when a bleed against you {would be} successful. The bleed burns no pool. Instead, this vampire taps and enters combat with the acting minion.
This gets played in the usual Spying Mission window. Edge moves, per the definition of a successful bleed (bleed amount > 0 and successful action).
If you think altering it into "The bleed burns no pool {but remains successful}." would be clearer, let me know. That's a quick change that doesn't change how the card works, and that I can do on the fly.
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02 Jan 2012 01:02 #19706
by KevinM
[STR] Only usable when a bleed against you {would be} successful. {The action (but not the bleed) is successful, and no pool is lost}. Instead, this vampire taps and enters combat with the acting minion.
In fact, I think we could use "{The action (but not the bleed) is successful, and no pool is lost}." on several cards, just to make it absolutely, crystal clear.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
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Replied by KevinM on topic Re: Strix superior and the edge
I think that, if you were to feel that you had to change any wording on the card, you should change it to:Rewording Strix as part of the "When bleed is successful" rewordings in RTR 20111202 .
New cardtext:
Name: Strix
Cardtype: Reaction
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Striga
Burn Option
[str] +1 intercept, even if intercept is not yet needed. If this vampire successfully blocks this action, he or she untaps at the end of the action. [str] is not a Discipline.
[STR] Only usable when a bleed against you {would be} successful. The bleed burns no pool. Instead, this vampire taps and enters combat with the acting minion.
This gets played in the usual Spying Mission window. Edge moves, per the definition of a successful bleed (bleed amount > 0 and successful action).
If you think altering it into "The bleed burns no pool {but remains successful}." would be clearer, let me know. That's a quick change that doesn't change how the card works, and that I can do on the fly.
[STR] Only usable when a bleed against you {would be} successful. {The action (but not the bleed) is successful, and no pool is lost}. Instead, this vampire taps and enters combat with the acting minion.
In fact, I think we could use "{The action (but not the bleed) is successful, and no pool is lost}." on several cards, just to make it absolutely, crystal clear.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017
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