Does Catatonic Fear + Target Vitals work?

jamesatzephyr wrote:

There were differences between various CCGs on this sort of thing.

Actually, there are already differences within VTES: "action ends" effects prevent you from playing any other effect in that action, "combat ends" effects do not prevent you from playing any other effect in that combat.

Non-existant user wrote:

jamesatzephyr wrote:

There were differences between various CCGs on this sort of thing.

Actually, there are already differences within VTES: "action ends" effects prevent you from playing any other effect in that action, "combat ends" effects do not prevent you from playing any other effect in that combat.

I think James's point was that there wasn't really back in ye old days of yore as obedience/kiss of ra probably weren't played how they are now (I certainly recall players ferajkign after kiss of ra for many years!)

Non-existant user wrote:

Actually, there are already differences within VTES: "action ends" effects prevent you from playing any other effect in that action, "combat ends" effects do not prevent you from playing any other effect in that combat.

It's an interesting parallel, but - I think - not one that's exact.

When combat ends (and the round ends), you can fit in a bunch of "As the round ends" or "As the combat ends" effects. For example, you can play cards such as Taste of Vitae:
Disarm:
Pulled Fangs:
Amaranth: Implicitly played at the end of a round (wounded vampire going to torpor = ends the combat), covered specifically in RTR 20-OCT-2000.


All of these sort of effects are playable after, say, Strike: Combat Ends, Rotschreck, Elysium: The Arboretum, or Mariel, Lady Thunder. (Again, RTR 20-OCT-2000.) The triggering condition for them to be played happens, so you can play it. You can also obviously play cards like Telepathic Tracking and Psyche! (The details of Psyche! have obviously changed a little.) You can even play Hidden Lurker and fizzle the rest of Rotschreck, because you trigger the condition of Hidden Lurker.


As far as I can tell, 99% of action modifiers (or reactions) do not have windows that they trigger in such as "As the action ends" (equivalent to "As the round ends" or "As the combat ends"). Without that, you just order them one after the other - play, resolve, play, resolve. If playing one of them invalidates a play that either player would make later, that's just tough cookies. For example:

1) I am the acting player/have the impulse and use an effect before range is chosen that ends combat. (Elysium, Purchase Pact, Mariel etc.) Your blocking Trujah does not get to quickly say "Well, I hit you with Outside the Hourglass then", because it can't "interrupt" the resolution of Elysium without some triggering text.

2) I play Call of the Hungry Dead, ending (failing) the block attempt of your only vampire. That about-to-not-be-a-blocker can't sneak in during that point and say "While the block is about to fail, I play Elder Intervention, just to cycle." No triggering text, so it can't be played. So we fully resolve Call of the Hungry Dead, now you can play your effect - but it's impossible now that you're not blocking.


So if you have an effect that triggers "at the end of an action", you might be able to play it when an action ends through - say - Kiss of Ra. It does have triggering text to interrupt the normal "play-resolve, then the next one" mechanism. (Or more generally: resolve one effect at a time. Not all cards resolve as they are played: actions and strikes. But you do generally fully resolve the card before moving on to the next effect.) See [LSJ 20100409] . There is some back and forth in the thread, but I think LSJ acknowledges that Momentary Delay would be playable as the action ends from Kiss of Ra except...

And since the block has been cancelled, the extra requirement isn't met - so it isn't playable.

I'm fairly certain I am not misrepresenting the output of that thread to say that LSJ retreats from:

LSJ, wrote:

> 1) Kiss of Ra ends the action, as noted by floppy,
> 2) Kiss of Ra cancels the block, so the action is not blocked, as you
> noted, and
> 3) this vampire lost 3 blood, unless xe somehow pays less for Kiss of
> Ra.

> So there would seem to be plenty of reasons why you can't play
> Momentary Delay after Kiss of Ra.

Correct.

(Which potentially endorses all the points.)

To:

LSJ, wrote:

> I'm not trying to be difficult, but it doesn't seem to make sense.
> Kiss of Ra ends an action, and another card, Momentary Delay, is
> playable after the end of an action ...

As you and wumpus both noted, Momentary Delay is not usable because it
is only usable after a blocked action, and the action in question is
not blocked.

Which to me appears to be saying that Momentary Delay would be playable then, except that its other criteria aren't met.



Freak isn't playable, because it's played "at the end of a successful action" - the action wasn't successful - or "even if it was blocked" which, per that Momentary Delay response above, "the action in question is not blocked". Ditto Sleep Unseen: "Only usable at the end of a successful action." Truth of a Thousand Lies: "Only usable at the end of a successful action" Vigilance: "Only usable at the end of a successful action "

I think you might be overreading it.
"Momentary Delay isn't playable because A, B, and C" + "remove A, B and C" should drive you to "Is Momentary Delay playable", rather than "Momentary Delay is playable".

It's the same ruling as Obedience + Freak Drive : [LSJ 20040927] .

See also the philosophy behind [LSJ 19981029]

Pascal wrote:

I think you might be overreading it.
"Momentary Delay isn't playable because A, B, and C" + "remove A, B and C" should drive you to "Is Momentary Delay playable", rather than "Momentary Delay is playable".

I read this as:

"Momentary Delay isn't playable because of A and B."
"But doesn't Momentary Delay's text say it can be played despite A?"
"Momentary Delay still isn't playable because of B."

Pascal wrote:

It's the same ruling as Obedience + Freak Drive : [LSJ 20040927].

See also the philosophy behind [LSJ 19981029]

Hence I'm basing my question on a (significantly) later ruling.

[LSJ 20100206] wrote:

> The acting vampire played Mirror Walk superior, and got successfully
> blocked. Can he play Momentary Delay on this action (it should be No,
> with similarity to Mirror Walk & Freak Drive)?

Right. Cannot play modifiers after the end of the action.

(Now, I'm getting confused with Google Groups's date representation, but at least this one is pretty close both in time and in content to the ruling you're looking for)

Pascal wrote:

[LSJ 20100206] wrote:

> The acting vampire played Mirror Walk superior, and got successfully
> blocked. Can he play Momentary Delay on this action (it should be No,
> with similarity to Mirror Walk & Freak Drive)?

Right. Cannot play modifiers after the end of the action.

(Now, I'm getting confused with Google Groups's date representation, but at least this one is pretty close both in time and in content to the ruling you're looking for)

It's still earlier.

But I tap Elysium: The Arboretum, or play Rotschreck, or resolve an S:CE strike. The round ends (and the combat). Why can I play end-of-round effects here? Surely there is no combat to play combat cards in?

Since I am allowed to sneak Taste of Vitae in during a "combat ends" effect, why am I not allowed to similarly sneak "at the end of the action" effects in during an "action ends" effect?

Why is "action ends" apparently atomic, but "combat ends" is not atomic?

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Why is "action ends" apparently atomic, but "combat ends" is not atomic?

Related questions:

"At the end of your turn" is still during your turn. There is no 'between turns' phase. [LSJ 20090731]

When the turn ends from Last Stand going off, can I trigger Carrion Coffin?
LS: " When any other Methuselah is ousted, the current turn ends (after the current action is concluded, if any)"
CC: "The vampire with this card may burn 1 blood to untap at the end of any Methuselah's turn."

Is the turn ending atomic or non-atomic?

Is there a difference between a voluntary effect (such as CC) and a mandatory effect, such as Leather Jacket's untap?
LJ: "If the action to equip with the Leather Jacket is successful, untap the acting minion at the end of the turn."

Morphean Blow would also be interesting - if I can't burn the card at the end of the turn, Last Stand could leave it on me forever.
MB: "[val] Strike: combat ends and put this card on the opposing minion. This minion cannot take actions or block. Burn this card at the end of the turn."


Acting minion plays Mirror Walk, blocking minion plays Strix. The action ends, and the block is still apparently successful. This doesn't trigger the "untap me" effect [FZD 20111212] but is apparently on the list for review. But end of the action effects don't occur, apparently. So...

... I play Cleave during a combat to create a temporary melee weapon.
Cleave: "Choose a melee weapon this imbued has or spend 1 conviction [1 CONVICTION] to put this card on this imbued to represent a melee weapon... Burn the melee weapon at the end of the action."
The acting minion plays Form of Mist during the combat. (For the sake of argument, I played my Cleave earlier - during before range - hoping to draw into a maneuver or something, maybe, if anyone wants to say "Why wouldn't you play Cleave after they've chosen their strike.) So the acting minion plays Form of Mist, or another end-combat+action continuer, during the combat. The Cleave weapon stays on me for now, usable if I block again. During the subsequent block attempt, the action is now ended with an effect. Say, Mirror Walk, or maybe Kiss of Ra if I also control a vampire. (But it could be any other action-ender, if that would make a difference.) Strix will not untap me at the end of the action, so will Cleave burn at the end of the action? (If yes, why the difference?) Do I get to keep the Cleave forever? This is unlike, say, a temporary theft of a vampire effect, where the control is gifted "until the end of your turn", and once that expires, there's nothing keeping them there. There's just an effect saying "burn it", much like there was a Strix effect saying "untap me".



I have a Pere Lachaise in play and enough pool on it to bring back the vampire. Last Stand is in play (mine or someone else's). I play Retribution on a vampire with Fame, which causes sufficient pool damage to oust that player. Last Stand ends the turn (and therefore my master phase). Does Pere Lachaise trigger?
PL: " If the blood on the vampire equals the vampire's capacity, place the vampire in the ready region at the end of the master phase and burn this card."
Edit to add: If this is too contrived (though anything involving Pere Lachaise is!), imagine I filled up Pere Lachaise in order to have one less pool than my prey, so I could play Personal Involvement, ousting them. End addition.



Vicissitude Poisoning is in play, and during a stealth/intercept fight a Tzimisce hits the appropriate number of poison counters. They end the action somehow - Kiss of Ra, for example, or perhaps the block is successful but they played Mirror Walk. Do they burn?
VP: "If the number of poison counters on this card is greater than the capacity of the vampire, burn him or her at the end of the current action or combat."

jamesatzephyr wrote:

As far as I can tell, 99% of action modifiers (or reactions) do not have windows that they trigger in such as "As the action ends" (equivalent to "As the round ends" or "As the combat ends").

Actions modifiers and reactions are not the only effects playable during an action. You also have all the untimed effects such as drawing from the Dreams or gaining blood from the Coven. I cannot of an example right now where it matters whether the blood is gained before or after the end of the action, though.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Related questions:

Another related question.

What counts as losing control? The original ruling tells us:

Two vampires are in combat. The acting one is burned. The action ends (the RTR 1997 ruling).

Does the apparently atomic "action ends" window include a non-atomic "round ends" and "combat ends" window?

Can the reacting vampire play Cats' Guidance? There is no action left to react to. Apparently yes. [LSJ 20090922]

LSJ, wrote:

> Finally, if the blocking minion burns the acting in combat, can he
> play Cats' Guidance inf' ?
> I'd say he can.

Yes.

So in some cases, action ends ends the action irrevocably and there's no action left to react to. But here you can still play it, even though the "action ends".

The linked ruling from that ruling talks about torporising not burning (and torporizing isn't covered by the 1997 loss of control ruling, because you don't lose control), but it tells us that the action moves to "the action is ending".

So in some cases, "the action ends" is atomic (Kiss of Ra, Mirror Walk), and in some cases "the action ends" is not atomic (2009 ruling, the normal end of the action).