file Does Catatonic Fear + Target Vitals work?

25 Apr 2013 09:56 - 25 Apr 2013 09:57 #47684 by jamesatzephyr

Pascal Bertrand wrote: [LSJ 20100206] wrote:

> The acting vampire played Mirror Walk superior, and got successfully
> blocked. Can he play Momentary Delay on this action (it should be No,
> with similarity to Mirror Walk & Freak Drive)?

Right. Cannot play modifiers after the end of the action.

(Now, I'm getting confused with Google Groups's date representation, but at least this one is pretty close both in time and in content to the ruling you're looking for)

It's still earlier.

But I tap Elysium: The Arboretum, or play Rotschreck, or resolve an S:CE strike. The round ends (and the combat). Why can I play end-of-round effects here? Surely there is no combat to play combat cards in?

Since I am allowed to sneak Taste of Vitae in during a "combat ends" effect, why am I not allowed to similarly sneak "at the end of the action" effects in during an "action ends" effect?

Why is "action ends" apparently atomic, but "combat ends" is not atomic?
Last edit: 25 Apr 2013 09:57 by jamesatzephyr.

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26 Apr 2013 06:49 - 26 Apr 2013 06:58 #47745 by jamesatzephyr

jamesatzephyr wrote: Why is "action ends" apparently atomic, but "combat ends" is not atomic?

Related questions:

"At the end of your turn" is still during your turn. There is no 'between turns' phase. [LSJ 20090731]

When the turn ends from Last Stand going off, can I trigger Carrion Coffin?
LS: " When any other Methuselah is ousted, the current turn ends (after the current action is concluded, if any)"
CC: "The vampire with this card may burn 1 blood to untap at the end of any Methuselah's turn."

Is the turn ending atomic or non-atomic?

Is there a difference between a voluntary effect (such as CC) and a mandatory effect, such as Leather Jacket's untap?
LJ: "If the action to equip with the Leather Jacket is successful, untap the acting minion at the end of the turn."

Morphean Blow would also be interesting - if I can't burn the card at the end of the turn, Last Stand could leave it on me forever.
MB: "[val] Strike: combat ends and put this card on the opposing minion. This minion cannot take actions or block. Burn this card at the end of the turn."

Acting minion plays Mirror Walk, blocking minion plays Strix. The action ends, and the block is still apparently successful. This doesn't trigger the "untap me" effect [FZD 20111212] but is apparently on the list for review. But end of the action effects don't occur, apparently. So...

... I play Cleave during a combat to create a temporary melee weapon.
Cleave: "Choose a melee weapon this imbued has or spend 1 conviction [1 CONVICTION] to put this card on this imbued to represent a melee weapon... Burn the melee weapon at the end of the action."
The acting minion plays Form of Mist during the combat. (For the sake of argument, I played my Cleave earlier - during before range - hoping to draw into a maneuver or something, maybe, if anyone wants to say "Why wouldn't you play Cleave after they've chosen their strike.) So the acting minion plays Form of Mist, or another end-combat+action continuer, during the combat. The Cleave weapon stays on me for now, usable if I block again. During the subsequent block attempt, the action is now ended with an effect. Say, Mirror Walk, or maybe Kiss of Ra if I also control a vampire. (But it could be any other action-ender, if that would make a difference.) Strix will not untap me at the end of the action, so will Cleave burn at the end of the action? (If yes, why the difference?) Do I get to keep the Cleave forever? This is unlike, say, a temporary theft of a vampire effect, where the control is gifted "until the end of your turn", and once that expires, there's nothing keeping them there. There's just an effect saying "burn it", much like there was a Strix effect saying "untap me".

I have a Pere Lachaise in play and enough pool on it to bring back the vampire. Last Stand is in play (mine or someone else's). I play Retribution on a vampire with Fame, which causes sufficient pool damage to oust that player. Last Stand ends the turn (and therefore my master phase). Does Pere Lachaise trigger?
PL: " If the blood on the vampire equals the vampire's capacity, place the vampire in the ready region at the end of the master phase and burn this card."
Edit to add: If this is too contrived (though anything involving Pere Lachaise is!), imagine I filled up Pere Lachaise in order to have one less pool than my prey, so I could play Personal Involvement, ousting them. End addition.

Vicissitude Poisoning is in play, and during a stealth/intercept fight a Tzimisce hits the appropriate number of poison counters. They end the action somehow - Kiss of Ra, for example, or perhaps the block is successful but they played Mirror Walk. Do they burn?
VP: "If the number of poison counters on this card is greater than the capacity of the vampire, burn him or her at the end of the current action or combat."
Last edit: 26 Apr 2013 06:58 by jamesatzephyr.

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26 Apr 2013 07:03 - 26 Apr 2013 07:03 #47746 by Boris The Blade

jamesatzephyr wrote: As far as I can tell, 99% of action modifiers (or reactions) do not have windows that they trigger in such as "As the action ends" (equivalent to "As the round ends" or "As the combat ends").

Actions modifiers and reactions are not the only effects playable during an action. You also have all the untimed effects such as drawing from the Dreams or gaining blood from the Coven. I cannot of an example right now where it matters whether the blood is gained before or after the end of the action, though.
Last edit: 26 Apr 2013 07:03 by Boris The Blade.

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02 May 2013 09:25 #48079 by jamesatzephyr

jamesatzephyr wrote: Related questions:

Another related question.
If the Methuselah loses control of the acting minion before the resolution of the action, then the action ends. [RTR 19970630]

What counts as losing control? The original ruling tells us:
14) If a minion takes an action but the acting player loses control of it
before the action is successful, the action simply ends. A player loses
control of a minion that is burned, stolen, and so on. Note that a vampire
that goes into torpor (or that began the action while in torpor) is still
controlled by the acting player, so it can complete the action.

Two vampires are in combat. The acting one is burned. The action ends (the RTR 1997 ruling).

Does the apparently atomic "action ends" window include a non-atomic "round ends" and "combat ends" window?

Can the reacting vampire play Cats' Guidance? There is no action left to react to. Apparently yes. [LSJ 20090922]

LSJ, responding to some guy called Floppy, wrote: > Finally, if the blocking minion burns the acting in combat, can he
> play Cats' Guidance inf' ?
> I'd say he can.


So in some cases, action ends ends the action irrevocably and there's no action left to react to. But here you can still play it, even though the "action ends".

The linked ruling from that ruling talks about torporising not burning (and torporizing isn't covered by the 1997 loss of control ruling, because you don't lose control), but it tells us that the action moves to "the action is ending".

So in some cases, "the action ends" is atomic (Kiss of Ra, Mirror Walk), and in some cases "the action ends" is not atomic (2009 ruling, the normal end of the action).

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02 May 2013 12:05 - 02 May 2013 12:08 #48086 by Boris The Blade
By the way, I found an example where using the Coven during of after the action matters: Slake the Thirst at :SAN:. You cannot play Slake the Thirst on the Coven if you use it between actions.
Last edit: 02 May 2013 12:08 by Boris The Blade.

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