file Debacle: control tools for Toreador

26 Aug 2022 07:45 #106154 by Kraus
Debacle
+1 Stealth Political Action
Requires: :tore:
Cost: 2 :blood:
Choose a ready titled vampire. Successful referendum means the chosen vampire is moved to the uncontrolled region (breaking any temporary control effects); any cards and counters on the chosen vampire stay with them but are out of play as long as the chosen vampire remains uncontrolled. Unique, non-titled Toreador :tore: gain 1 vote in this referendum.



This card is designed to give Toreador some tools to control the political/societal table state in late game and give mid-to-high capacity Toreador crypts more power over other voting crypts without resorting to only vampires of higher capacity.

Torries have interesting cap 6-8 Princes but fail to control board states akin to Ventrue, and more recently various Barons.

Scalpel Tongue is an interesting and powerful vote control tool, but does not close out games.

The cost is high at present to tone the power level, and to prevent created vampires (Embrace) of calling these votes without significant tool-up.

This card is designed to address the problem of Toreador lacking meaningful flavour as societal predators.

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise

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The following user(s) said Thank You: lip

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26 Aug 2022 07:59 #106155 by lip
Love it!

It's really good thematically, and it could see play. I would argue that the target restriction (only Titled vampires) should allow for a lower cost (0 or 1 blood). And I would extend the vote bonus to all unique Toreadors (including titled).

But that's details, mostly a question of balance to look into for the design team ☺︎

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26 Aug 2022 11:48 #106157 by Kraus
The restrictions are there for a few reasons:

Being able to Banish an Inner Circle is an absolutely huge swing, so the blood costs are there to keep it in line. To be fair, this effect does not differ much, arguably, from a rush and diablerie, or an opportune Horseshoes, and requires different sort of setup, but still, it's something to consider.

The vote bonus was added as such specifically to not make it always better in an AAA crypt, but allow for different crypt setups. When making new stuff for Toreador, you have to be careful not to cater to the best as well as the worse. AAA is the best - if it's as usable there, as elsewhere, then it only buffs AAA, not the rest of the crypts. The idea was to allow for a mix of crypts, including the mid-cap ones in G4 and G6.

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise

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26 Aug 2022 12:15 #106158 by Kiddo
So, a 2-cap can banish an Inner Circle. And he (and potentially more vamps) get an additional vote to do so.

Seems balanced ;)
The following user(s) said Thank You: Joscha

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26 Aug 2022 19:01 #106163 by Kraus

So, a 2-cap can banish an Inner Circle. And he (and potentially more vamps) get an additional vote to do so.

Seems balanced ;)

Less lip and more consideration from you, and you'll see it's actually easier to pull off a rush + aggro + dip from a :pro: 2-cap than getting a vote like this off. ;)

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise

garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
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28 Aug 2022 06:45 #106168 by lip
Yeah... there might be some balancing to be done. I'm still not fan of the cost. I mean in most cases, I would expect to play this in a Prince-heavy deck so the additional votes will not be that much present, and if you want to banish an IC you still have to out-vote them, that's not that easy (sure, you have :PRE: but then yeah, it's not really easier than combat).
Maybe the cost is fine. Maybe it can be lower but the card should be limited to titled vampires or vampires with a capacity 5 or more.

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