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Why some new vampires have better design and some worse?
10 Jun 2024 10:14 - 10 Jun 2024 16:39 #111651
by Palamedes
With the spoiling of new cards from the "30" deck (at the moment: Lucinde, Alastor (Group 7), Molly MacDonald and Marcos Belegrad), I'm wondering why some vampires are clearly better than others. Or on the other hand, why are some clearly worse?
When VTES was TCG, it made sense to be some randomization in vampire's strength. It seems to me that there is no need for it in current format.
Let's compare Molly and Lucinde, and what they can do for themselves. Those are two vampires that should technically be on a similar level. Lucinde has an unconditional, always usable ability, around which even an entire deck can be based, to make her star. Molly has a semi-usable ability that nothing can be based around, it's just a matter of randomness, and even then it's just a bonus that doesn't represent any significant twist. Lucinde has +1 bleed, always usable and certainly more valuable than Molly's +1 str.
Now, discipline - Molly's biggest screw up. Certainly, the in-clan disciplines of the Ventrue are better, so I won't comment on that, but only those outside the clan. Molly has PRO and there like 10-cap Justicar doesn't have any special advantage, what would she play with it - Homunculus, flesh of marble, earth meld, claws... Nothing significant for one 10-cap Justicar, really. Lucinde has:
- pot for grapple and disarm (which goes well with her abilities and FOR),
- tha to find equipment (the possibilities are great),
- obf for additional stealth, so that the actions pass.
All of Lucinda's additional disciplines are very useful on their own, complement her very well, and can fit nicely with the various other clans that will be coming to her new archetype. Molly will hardly be in that deck (or any other successful deck).
I see Lucinde as very usable and playable, while I would gladly find an alternative for Molly, no reason to play her at all.
My question is why the difference is so big? Is it about VTM lore?
When VTES was TCG, it made sense to be some randomization in vampire's strength. It seems to me that there is no need for it in current format.
Let's compare Molly and Lucinde, and what they can do for themselves. Those are two vampires that should technically be on a similar level. Lucinde has an unconditional, always usable ability, around which even an entire deck can be based, to make her star. Molly has a semi-usable ability that nothing can be based around, it's just a matter of randomness, and even then it's just a bonus that doesn't represent any significant twist. Lucinde has +1 bleed, always usable and certainly more valuable than Molly's +1 str.
Now, discipline - Molly's biggest screw up. Certainly, the in-clan disciplines of the Ventrue are better, so I won't comment on that, but only those outside the clan. Molly has PRO and there like 10-cap Justicar doesn't have any special advantage, what would she play with it - Homunculus, flesh of marble, earth meld, claws... Nothing significant for one 10-cap Justicar, really. Lucinde has:
- pot for grapple and disarm (which goes well with her abilities and FOR),
- tha to find equipment (the possibilities are great),
- obf for additional stealth, so that the actions pass.
All of Lucinda's additional disciplines are very useful on their own, complement her very well, and can fit nicely with the various other clans that will be coming to her new archetype. Molly will hardly be in that deck (or any other successful deck).
I see Lucinde as very usable and playable, while I would gladly find an alternative for Molly, no reason to play her at all.
My question is why the difference is so big? Is it about VTM lore?
Last edit: 10 Jun 2024 16:39 by Palamedes. Reason: typo
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10 Jun 2024 20:18 #111655
by Poci
Replied by Poci on topic Why some new vampires have better design and some worse?
I often think having a Designer Diary episode about how some cards started and what feedbacks they got on them and the changes they implemented because of them.
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11 Jun 2024 08:46 #111660
by Palamedes
Molly's ship has sailed, but yes, I'm curious at what point and why someone would say "ok, this is good, this is what Justicar should look like, this fits this group and this is what people will want to play in their decks."
It's not some random vampire, it's Justicar, in thirty years this is the fourth Nosferatu Justicar, wouldn't it be logical to have something more usable and playable than what we got?
Surely there is some logic and reason why the design team made the card like this (Molly).
Lucinde is straight forward good, while Molly is very questionable if she has any reason to be in any deck. But the design team must have already thought about that, and made the decision that it's okay this way. Why? There's probably something I'm not seeing, and I'd like to know what, for real, to avoid the frustration and disappointment that arises every time I see a new Nosferatu vampire.
Replied by Palamedes on topic Why some new vampires have better design and some worse?
I often think having a Designer Diary episode about how some cards started and what feedbacks they got on them and the changes they implemented because of them.
Molly's ship has sailed, but yes, I'm curious at what point and why someone would say "ok, this is good, this is what Justicar should look like, this fits this group and this is what people will want to play in their decks."
It's not some random vampire, it's Justicar, in thirty years this is the fourth Nosferatu Justicar, wouldn't it be logical to have something more usable and playable than what we got?
Surely there is some logic and reason why the design team made the card like this (Molly).
Lucinde is straight forward good, while Molly is very questionable if she has any reason to be in any deck. But the design team must have already thought about that, and made the decision that it's okay this way. Why? There's probably something I'm not seeing, and I'd like to know what, for real, to avoid the frustration and disappointment that arises every time I see a new Nosferatu vampire.
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11 Jun 2024 11:34 #111661
by Palamedes
Replied by Palamedes on topic Why some new vampires have better design and some worse?
Just for the record, this is Molly MacDonald I would consider playable. I changed the disciplines, and changed the abilities to something that the rest of the crypt can be built around.
Name: Molly MacDonald
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Nosferatu
Group: 7
Capacity: 10
Discipline: for pro ANI OBF POT
Camarilla Nosferatu Justicar: Molly gets +1 vote and +1 bleed if you control a non-Camarilla vampire. +1 strength.
Artist: Carmen Cornet
See the image in the attachment.
I don't see that there is anything overpowered. Correct me if I'm wrong?
Name: Molly MacDonald
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Nosferatu
Group: 7
Capacity: 10
Discipline: for pro ANI OBF POT
Camarilla Nosferatu Justicar: Molly gets +1 vote and +1 bleed if you control a non-Camarilla vampire. +1 strength.
Artist: Carmen Cornet
See the image in the attachment.
I don't see that there is anything overpowered. Correct me if I'm wrong?
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11 Jun 2024 12:14 #111662
by Poci
Replied by Poci on topic Why some new vampires have better design and some worse?
It's not overpowered, but not really that much better either.
Having no bounce, or synergy within the grouping's OOCs still, it only solves the randomness of her ability, nothing else really.
Having no bounce, or synergy within the grouping's OOCs still, it only solves the randomness of her ability, nothing else really.
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11 Jun 2024 14:24 #111663
by DavidR
David Resende - Prince of Teresina
:OBL:
Replied by DavidR on topic Why some new vampires have better design and some worse?
Why force someone to use non-camarilla vampire on a deck with a justicar is better? the bonus against non-camarilla vampires look a incentive to play with judgment: camarilla segregation, with her current set of disciplines enkil cog and homunculus seens fit, she can reforce the nosferatu, to me she looks ok, not overpowered, but playable
Just for the record, this is Molly MacDonald I would consider playable. I changed the disciplines, and changed the abilities to something that the rest of the crypt can be built around.
Name: Molly MacDonald
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Nosferatu
Group: 7
Capacity: 10
Discipline: for pro ANI OBF POT
Camarilla Nosferatu Justicar: Molly gets +1 vote and +1 bleed if you control a non-Camarilla vampire. +1 strength.
Artist: Carmen Cornet
See the image in the attachment.
I don't see that there is anything overpowered. Correct me if I'm wrong?
David Resende - Prince of Teresina
:OBL:
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