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28 Dec 2020 16:17 - 28 Dec 2020 16:17 #101308 by Bloodartist
Necrosis and target vitals was created by Bloodartist
Question : How does target vitals function with a strike that causes environmental damage, such as Necrosis? Does vitals trigger off the environmental damage?

Necrosis
Type Combat

[pot] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage.
[thn] Strike: hand strike at +2 damage.
[THN] As [thn] above, and the opposing vampire takes 1 unpreventable environmental damage during the press step this round (only effective if this strike was made at close range).

Rulings
- Additional damage inherits all of the properties of the base damage. [TOM 19960225]
- [THN] If the strike is dodged, environmental damage is not applied. [ANK 20200517]

Target Vitals
Type
Combat
Card Text
Aim. Only usable as this minion chooses a strike. A minion can play only one aim each strike.
If any damage from this strike is successfully inflicted on the opposing minion, they take +2 damage from this strike, and they cannot press this round. They can discard two combat cards to cancel this card as it is played.
Rulings
- Is played during the Strike phase (6.4.3) even if you commit to a strike in the Determine Range phase (6.4.2) (eg. Thrown Gate). Cannot be played if the strike cannot be chosen anymore during the Strike phase (eg. Immortal Grapple). [LSJ 20080409]
- The additional damage is the same type as the strike's damage. [RTR 19970630]
- If it is canceled, any blood cost (eg. Terror Frenzy) has to be paid. [PIB 20121031]
- Can be played on a dodge or a combat ends, but does not add damage in that case. [PIB 20130319]


Discussion on discord made me notice that if the unpreventable environmental part does not trigger target vitals, we have a contradiction.
A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing
Last edit: 28 Dec 2020 16:17 by Bloodartist.

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28 Dec 2020 17:50 - 28 Dec 2020 17:51 #101309 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Necrosis and target vitals
It works like Dagon's Call: Target Vitals increases only the damage that resolves with the strike, not the extra damage that is inflicted later.

groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/QreZ7T6AXxo/m/xISb0iogFgkJ

groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/ExPCpreuOhY/m/FHtR6J56mxIJ
Prince of Paris, France
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Last edit: 28 Dec 2020 17:51 by Ankha.
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28 Dec 2020 18:10 - 28 Dec 2020 18:21 #101310 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Necrosis and target vitals

It works like Dagon's Call: Target Vitals increases only the damage that resolves with the strike, not the extra damage that is inflicted later.


I'm not sure I understand this. Target vitals works with catatonic fear, which has damage that resolves outside of combat. That doesn't seem like "damage that resolves with the strike".

The main issue with this ruling (which I feared) is that dodge has been ruled to work against all the damage from Necrosis, implying that the environmental damage is dealt by the strike.

Excerpt from the 5th edition rulebook:
"Dodge: A dodge strike deals no damage, but it protects the dodging minion
and their possessions from the effects of
the opposing strike."
(rulebook page 33)

Note that it says, "strike" not "strike card". Only effects of the strike can be dodged.

So if dodge works against necrosis environmental damage, that implies that the environmental damage is dealt by the strike. On the other hand, if it was not dealt by the strike, it shouldn't be possible do dodge it.

I would also point out that page 31 of the rulebook says that "environmental damage cannot be dodged."

blackchantry.com/Vampire%20The%20Eternal%20Struggle%20Fifth%20Edition%20rulebook%20ENG.pdf

One of the rulings has to be revised due to contradiction.
A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing
Last edit: 28 Dec 2020 18:21 by Bloodartist.

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28 Dec 2020 21:17 #101313 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic Necrosis and target vitals
I agree with Bloodartist that the ruling on Necrosis seems off in regards to that the dodge would prevent the environmental damage.

Ankha wrote:
Dodge "protects the dodging minion and his possessions (cards on him) from the effects of the opposing strike. " So you wouldn't take any damage from Necrosis.


In my opinion the above statement should exempt environmental damage to align to the general ruling regarding dodge and environmental damage handling. The dodge doesn´t mean that the strike doesn´t resolve like CE would mean and therefore the additional effect being triggered as part of the strike is logical to still apply.

Bloodartist wrote:
I'm not sure I understand this. Target vitals works with catatonic fear, which has damage that resolves outside of combat. That doesn't seem like "damage that resolves with the strike".


Catatonic Fear damage is not environmental damage and thereby dodge-able, it is like a variant of Anesthetic Touch but instead of First Strike it is a delayed hit as combat is ending.

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28 Dec 2020 21:22 #101314 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Necrosis and target vitals

It works like Dagon's Call: Target Vitals increases only the damage that resolves with the strike, not the extra damage that is inflicted later.


I'm not sure I understand this. Target vitals works with catatonic fear, which has damage that resolves outside of combat. That doesn't seem like "damage that resolves with the strike".

It is, though. In the same thread as the one I provided the link for, groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/QreZ7T6AXxo/m/H-fB8eHbkwUJ

> Catatonic Fear damage is not "damage that resolves with the strike".

Yes, it is. Strike resolution of CF: End combat and apply damage after combat ends.

The main issue with this ruling (which I feared) is that dodge has been ruled to work against all the damage from Necrosis, implying that the environmental damage is dealt by the strike.

The environmental damage is an effect of the strike. However, it is not inflicted by the striking minion when the strike resolves, that is why it is not increased by the Target Vitals.

Excerpt from the 5th edition rulebook:
"Dodge: A dodge strike deals no damage, but it protects the dodging minion
and their possessions from the effects of
the opposing strike."
(rulebook page 33)

Note that it says, "strike" not "strike card". Only effects of the strike can be dodged.

Sure. Some strikes don't come from a card (eg., cardless hand strike), and dodges have to work against those;

So if dodge works against necrosis environmental damage, that implies that the environmental damage is dealt by the strike.

Correct, but it does not mean that the damage is dealt by the minion. That is the case for the extra damage from Necrosis that is "environmental" (not dealt by the minion).

I would also point out that page 31 of the rulebook says that "environmental damage cannot be dodged."

That is inaccurate indeed. The sentence was added to help new players understand that damage from a Carrion Crow cannot be dodged. Correct sentence should be something like "damage that are not inflicted by a strike (such as environmental damage from Carrion Crows or Murder of Crows) cannot be dodged." Thanks for pointing out the inaccuracy.

One of the rulings has to be revised due to contradiction.

The contradiction is within this sentence in the rulebook "Note that environmental damage cannot be dodged, since dodging only protects from the opponent’s strike."
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28 Dec 2020 22:57 #101317 by Yomyael
Replied by Yomyael on topic Necrosis and target vitals

[...]

The environmental damage is an effect of the strike. However, it is not inflicted by the striking minion when the strike resolves, that is why it is not increased by the Target Vitals.

[...]


The problem I see here, is that Target Vitals does not have text to make it care whether the damage is inflicted by the minion or not. Target Vitals only says "If any damage from this strike is successfully inflicted on the opposing minion". Since the environmental damage is in fact caused by the strike, it should work with Target Vitals.
Prince of Bonn, Germany

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